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Poll: What's the Solution?
Riot in the Streets
21%
 21%  [6]
Peaceful Protests
64%
 64%  [18]
Who cares? I'm White
14%
 14%  [4]
Impeach Obama
0%
 0%  [0]
Total Votes : 28

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Happymeal





  • #21
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 05:33
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I do agree with the general consensus in this case (and I typically don't comment upon topics in which I agree with the majority as there would be no point, but I do feel this is a fairly important topic), but the most I agree with is "I do believe race plays into this, but that it is not all that is happening, and that it's more a police problem than a race problem"; there's an inherent problem with allowing individuals so much power over others, especially when you oftentimes see an unqualified individual doing such (you can tell through how many cops do not follow proper protocol at all times when regarding the unqualified), but that's just the nature of these sorts. An occupation which allows individuals so much power is going to be abused by those who crave it (I'm not stating that the majority of police officers partake in these sorts of events, but there's certainly enough of these to be proven problematic).

I won't state I necessarily have a fair or efficient solution (as I do admit my intellect is most likely less than a majority of others who comment upon these sorts of topics), but perhaps the only solution that might avoid conflict (peaceful protests is a solution that I also feel is at least somewhat efficient) is creating a system which properly represents the ones in the communities whether that be selection of certain race, ideology, sex, etc. over others or decreasing of people within those general areas mentioned (ideology, sex, race, etc.) that aren't within the majority of that community to decrease of the amount of disproportionality. Of course, there are intrinsic values and problems to a system I proposed (as it may be difficult to find qualified individuals to replace others, but I think we can all agree that anyone who puts a man in a chokehold solely for resisting an arrest without any sort of weapon is already not qualified for such a position) such as the one mentioned in the parenthesis and the values held by many that justice should be colorblind (but it's obvious due to the statistical evidence in at least several controversial areas that it's not colorblind everywhere) so it's certainly not the best solution and it's difficult to impose, but it's something (though I only recommend it currently for something that's already inefficient such as the Ferguson police force for example).
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RockyRaccoon
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  • #22
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 05:40
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Fun facts related to the topic:

It is exceedingly rare for a police officer to get indicted for murder at all, regardless of race

Black people are 21 times more likely to be shot dead by police than whites.


All that together creates a problematic dynamic.
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Skinny
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  • #23
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 07:06
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I feel like benpaco managed to name almost every case in which police used horrifically undue force against white people in the past few years, and only a tiny fraction of the cases where the victims were black or Hispanic.
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undefined





  • #24
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 07:11
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Skinny wrote:
I feel like benpaco managed to name almost every case in which police used horrifically undue force against white people in the past few years, and only a tiny fraction of the cases where the victims were black or Hispanic.

benpaco wrote:
These are just the ones I've seen reported on.

Gotta love that selective media
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benpaco
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  • #25
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 07:21
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dividesbyzero wrote:
Gotta love that selective media


This for sure. I mean, the number of stop and frisk problems alone dwarfs the number of white people beaten I mentioned, though those aren't reported on generally as individual problems so much as 1 large issue, which somehow dehumanizes it.

Additionally, the three biggest cases of people getting completely screwed by the law or law enforcement were HUGE in the media and were all black people. Like, those are the more forgotten ones I've seen reported, I didn't mention Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, or Michael Brown, because all of those, I would hope, are things people have seen, as I said early in my post, I just didn't see the need to get into what happened there. I really do think race plays into this (see other Ben's stats and like literally all of history), please don't get me wrong.
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Precedent





  • #26
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 11:22
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benpaco wrote:
Just like Kathryn Johnston had illegal drugs on her? [If you don't know the story, grandmother shot to death in own home by cops, drugs planted on her by cops to cover it up]

For those I've heard who claim this was a weird or recent change, here's a list of more forgotten things (AKA not Trayvon or King or Brown or a few others), TL;DR versions. I do believe race plays into this, but that it is not all that is happening, and that it's more a police problem than a race problem.

Amadou Diallo (Black, 1999): Shot to death, wallet mistaken for gun. Cop who'd killed before reinstated in 2012, allowed to carry weapon.

Sean Bell (Black, 2006): Stories confused, may have been shot 50 times without warning, died. 3 cops of 5 indicted, all not guilty.

Austin Haley (White, 2007): Cop fired 2 shots at a birdhouse trying to hit a snake, killed a 5-year-old boy. Cop convicted, got his record expunged, may now rejoin force.

Aiyana Jones (Black, 2010): 7-year-old girl shot to death on camera by cop. Manslaughter charges dropped by judge, trial for reckless firing of a weapon delayed by 2nd mistrial.

Kelly Thomas (White, 2011): Homeless man obeys cop's orders, beaten to death by 3 cops. 2 cops found not guilty, 1 not tried.

Christopher Torres (White or Hispanic, 2011): Schizophrenic man punched cops, shot to death. Found not to be self-defense, city paid family. No charges for cops.

John Loxas (White, 2012): Unarmed 50-year-old shot to death while holding infant. Family paid $4.25 million, cop let off in his 6th "justifiable homicide".

Robert Leone (White, 2012): Man pulled over after low-speed chase, beaten until green, tased on the hospital bed. Leone charged with assault because he spit on the cop. Trial has been "coming up" for almost 2 years.

John Winkler (White, 2013): Victim of stabbing mistaken for the suspect shot to death by cops. Far as I can find, no charges for officers.

Jerry Waller (White, 2013): Cops enter wrong house, 72 year old grabs gun in self defense, shot to death. Officers not indicted.

Glenn Broadnax (Black, 2013): Cops fire at mentally unstable man attempting suicide by throwing himself at cop cars. Miss him, shoot 2 bystanders. Charge the unstable man, not the cops.

Cameron Redus (White, 2013): Man shot to death after car chase. After being pulled over, he asked "Oh, you're gonna shoot me?" and was shot "5 or 6 times". Case ongoing.

Edgar Vargas Arzate (Hispanic, 2014): Man mumbling, ran, may have grabbed a cop's leg, savagely beaten, tased, etc.

Akai Gurley (Black, 2014): Man shot to death after 2 rookie cops looking for him. Neither should've had gun drawn. Case ongoing.

John Crawford (Black, 2014): Man shot to death after call put in that he was "pointing a loaded rifle at children". It was a pellet rifle he was buying, unloaded, he was not pointing it. Cops, caller let off without charges.

Omar Abrego (Hispanic, 2014): Man beaten to death at traffic stop after reportedly possibly attempting to flee. Case ongoing.

Ezell Ford (Black, 2014): Man shot to death after muttering and making strange movements. Witnesses shouted "he's mentally ill", knowing he was bipolar. Man shot. Case ongoing.

Christopher Roupe (White, 2014): 17 year old shot to death upon answering door, cops mistook wii remote for a gun. Cop convicted, records searched, turned out she'd already been dismissed from another department.

Ron Hillstrom (White, 2014): Man yelling for help, thought cops weren't cops, ran, tased 4 times at once, beaten to death. Case possibly ongoing.

Daniel Saenz (Hispanic, 2014): Man handcuffed, squirming, shot to death on video. Cops not charged.

Dillon Taylor (White, 2014): Man said to have had earbuds in, music on, could not hear cops yelling to get down, shot to death. Alternative report shows he said "Nah man" when asked to put his hands up, was suicidal. Not tased or handcuffed, not struggling, just shot to death. No charges.

These are just the ones I've seen reported on. I know there are more. It hurts to see, but I know there are more. Let's keep in mind why Officer Wilson didn't have a taser on him, which could've kept him safe and left Brown alive - it was uncomfortable.


That's why I said "though it appears", of course I can't prove anything. Doesn't he have a criminal record? Or did is that false? Also, I do agree, it's much more of a general brutality thing.

And for this, I feel like part of it comes down to if you trust cops.
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meccalecca
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  • #27
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 13:42
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Precedent wrote:
Doesn't he have a criminal record? Or did is that false? Also, I do agree, it's much more of a general brutality thing.


Does it matter if he has a criminal record? Does it mean that he should be shot dead? The law says no. A cop is not paid to play judge, jury and executioner.

Does it also matter that Darren Wilson and the Ferguson PD have been linked to the KKK? It does to me. For public servants to belong to any hate group goes against their job requirements.


and well, then this happened:

Another unarmed black man shot dead by white cop in Phoenix (because the cop mistook a pill bottle for a gun)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/0...73278.html

This is like a bad running joke that was never funny
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SuedeSwede
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  • #28
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 13:56
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There's only so many times you can use the "dog chewed my homework" excuse - let's face it they wouldn't have got into the department with the incompetence of confusing an object that looks nothing like a firearm for a firearm. If so, there's gonna have to be stronger measures to get into the department.

However, I doubt incompetence is the case at all though I'm sure a naive British 16 year old like me couldn't even nearly prove that so I'll end there.
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Precedent





  • #29
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 14:16
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meccalecca wrote:
Does it matter if he has a criminal record? Does it mean that he should be shot dead? The law says no. A cop is not paid to play judge, jury and executioner.


I was referencing the man who shot the video, mecca.
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meccalecca
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  • #30
  • Posted: 12/05/2014 14:24
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Precedent wrote:
I was referencing the man who shot the video, mecca.


Ahh... well then in that case, does his criminal record discount his video footage choking a man to death?
And is his possession of a firearm a worse crime than homicide.

They coincidentally found the gun on Ramsey Orta after they knew he had video evidence of a cop killing an unarmed man. He claims that this evidence against him is fabricated. Meanwhile there's no way to dispute the evidence against officer Daniel Pantaleo.

So why does Daniel Pantaleo walk free while Orta is indicted.
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