Jazz for beginners! - Music - Forums : Best Ever Albums

RFNAPLES
Level 8

Gender: Male
Age: 75
Location: Durham, NC, USA

Those elements aren't in every jazz number. Linguists might enjoy semasiology and formal semantic, semiotic, pragmatic, and cognitive semantic debates. Personally I prefer enjoying music, jazz or otherwise.
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joannajewsom

Location: Philadelphia

RFNAPLES wrote:

Yes Kenny G is on the list. He started in jazz copying Grover Washington Jr and was on his high school jazz band. He plays what is called smooth jazz. He has been a commercial success and while some purists hate him, others love him. His current label is Concord Jazz.

Jazz is such a large field. Each of the musicians and their publishers think their jazz is good. Everybody's tastes vary. Amazon.com currently lists 173,256 jazz music CDs. So my two lists pare that number down for the novice to choose from. No information was provided regarding the inquirer’s likes or dislikes; instrumental or vocal; solo, small group or large group; style or genre; time period or country of origin; studio or live; etc. It would be like going to a pharmacist and asking for something good.

I don't know why you chose to give me a brief bio, as if I don't know who Kenny G is. I was asking a rhetorical question. I couldn't care less about his commercial success. Pointing a beginner, who's trying to get a basic overview of jazz, toward Kenny G is absurd. Purists hate him because a) he sucks and b) to label him jazz is an insult. Whether he sucks or not, is subjective. But, objectively speaking, Kenny G is far removed from the essential, groundbreaking, and progressive works created throughout the history of jazz by those who epitomized and, ultimately, defined the genre; therefore, he is a poor reference point, regardless of taste. Purists hate him because a lot of people who don't know anything about jazz, hear the word "jazz", and think of crap like Kenny G. It's like calling Paris Hilton an actress. I'm sure Bette Davis is rolling in her grave.
Same goes for Norah Jones, who I actually like as far as relaxing, harmless, sleepy-time music goes. She's not a good starting point, though.

Just because there are 100,000+ jazz cds, doesn't mean that a list of 100 is helpful, especially if it's in alphabetical order as opposed to a ranking based on quality. Now the beginner just has to comb through a list of 100. If he or she wanted to do that, he could just go to allmusic, click on the jazz page, and go down the list. A beginner would be looking for a few essential works to start with.

And it's not like going to a pharmacy and asking for something good. Asking about a specific genre isn't as broad as just saying "give me some drugs". It's more like going into a pharmacy and asking for cough medicine, if you would like an analogy.

RFNAPLES
Level 8

Gender: Male
Age: 75
Location: Durham, NC, USA

joannajewsom wrote:

I don't have any advice on where to start or what would be the best album to introduce you to jazz. There are so many different types of jazz (cool, avant-garde, hard bop, vocal, fusion).

Nevertheless we have attempted to give it. Personally I find giving only a few choices quite limiting. What if they had dissimilar interests? What if they didn't like bebop or preferred the commercially successful JAZZ albums of Jones and G because they were easier to get into? My two lists eliminate over 99.999% of jazz albums thus providing a starting ground.

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. - Lord Buddha
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joannajewsom

Location: Philadelphia

Your extensive list is all over the place, and is completely impractical. You can talk about 99.99999% all you want, but I doubt a "beginner" who wants an introduction would call a list of 100 albums 'narrow'. That's what you're missing. No one cares about the 170,000 cds on amazon, and telling us that doesn't make your list feel any smaller. I don't even want to know how you gathered that information.

The O.P. used the term "Beginner". You don't throw over 100 albums at a beginner. You give them a few essential works to start with. What's also obvious, to everyone else at least, is that when introducing someone to a genre of music, you want to introduce them to those works/artists who epitomized and defined the genre in its purest form. You don't start beginner's off by recommending contested sub-genres and bastardized pop versions. Purists don't like Kenny G because of people like you, who would recommend him to a beginner, who would then hear Kenny G and think "Okay, that's jazz".

Thanks for the life lesson, Lord Buddha. I now see the light.

RFNAPLES
Level 8

Gender: Male
Age: 75
Location: Durham, NC, USA

There have been entire books about Jazz for beginners and most list over 100 albums each. Check out Jazz For Dummies, 2nd Edition by Dirk Sutro or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz by Alan Axelrod or The Rough Guide to Jazz: 100 Essential CDs by Digby Fairweather and Brian Priestley. Again I am not a fan of rankings or short lists.

Truths and roses have thorns about them. - Henry David Thoreau. The optimist sees the rose and not its thorns; the pessimist stares at the thorns, oblivious to the rose - Kahlil Gibran. Caveat emptor!
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bc1991

You don't necessary need to rank them specifically, but to give those albums some kind of order, even a chronlogical one with a few spaces would have been 10 times better, and it would not look like a homework due on sunday night.

Quote:

There have been entire books about Jazz for beginners and most list over 100 albums each. Check out Jazz For Dummies, 2nd Edition by Dirk Sutro or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz by Alan Axelrod or The Rough Guide to Jazz: 100 Essential CDs by Digby Fairweather and Brian Priestley. Again I am not a fan of rankings or short lists.

I haven't read the Jazz For Dummies or he Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz, and by just reading the name of those books I think I never will... :roll:

If you want a real good book, there's the "Penguin Guide To Jazz", right now on its 9th edition. And yes, there are thousand of albums listed on that book, the difference is that great part of those albums listed have reviews and ratings, and there's also the selective choices called the "core collection" for the ones that are starting with the genre. And as the book says, it is a guide, not just a rough list without any information whatsoever on what can expect from them.

RFNAPLES
Level 8

Gender: Male
Age: 75
Location: Durham, NC, USA

The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings: Ninth Edition by Richard Cook and Brian Morton; All Music Guide to Jazz - 4th Edition by Vladimir Bogdanov, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine, and; Musichound Jazz: The Essential Album Guide edited by Steven Holtje and Nancy Ann Lee are all great discographies but those tomes are not really aimed at the beginner. The New York Times Essential Library: Jazz--A Critic's Guide to the 100 Most Important Recordings by Ben Ratliff and The NPR Curious Listener's Guide to Jazz by Loren Schoenberg and Wynton Marsalis might be helpful for beginners but more difficult than the three I mentioned earlier. Don’t be insulted by the dummies and idiots titles, even seasoned aficionados can gain insights from them.

I chose to list my recommendations alphabetically by last name because that is how I keep my collection within major genres. A chronological list is difficult when the recommended works include anthologies, greatest hits, best ofs, complete works and many musicians have recorded for decades. Feel free to order your lists any way you wish. I find it easier to think of a musician and immediately find their great works.
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Top 100 Greatest Music Albums by RFNAPLES
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bc1991

RFNAPLES wrote:

I chose to list my recommendations alphabetically by last name because that is how I keep my collection within major genres. A chronological list is difficult when the recommended works include anthologies, greatest hits, best ofs, complete works and many musicians have recorded for decades. Feel free to order your lists any way you wish. I find it easier to think of a musician and immediately find their great works.

But why would you want to recommend greatest hits or best ofs? And even the complete works for a beginner is totally innecesary.

And the issue here is not about you and me, is about the ones who want to get into the genre. I couldn't care less if you would have posted your list on a "what are your favorite jazz albums thread", but we have here third persons involved, and you have to think on them.

There aren't enough jazz fans around, and the ones who want to get into the genre may get scared because they are not guided rightly, and thats why I'm commenting on your list, because following it just as it is would be an error.

RFNAPLES
Level 8

Gender: Male
Age: 75
Location: Durham, NC, USA

Man, if you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know. - Louis Armstrong.

Greatest Hits and Best of albums are a good way to be introduced to a musician. If you liked some songs you could then listen to the album from which they came. If you decided you really liked it you could listen to another album or a complete works set by the same musician.

There is nothing wrong with my lists; they contain the best in jazz! The beginner may randomly choose any album or do their own research on the albums listed before making a listen or purchase decision. Shorter lists only introduce the makers bias which may be completely different than another listener, beginner or veteran.

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. - Albert Einstein.

We cannot force people to enjoy jazz. We can offer them numerous examples of great jazz to encourage their enjoyment. Take my advice, stop worrying and start listening to great jazz.

To err is human, to forgive, divine. – Alexander Pope.
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Top 100 Greatest Music Albums by RFNAPLES
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bc1991

I wasn't expecting you to agree with me.
I think I made my point very clear on my previous posts, and I have no intentions on further discussions about this issue.