Socialism

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GarfieldModo





  • #1
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 17:25
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What do you guys think about socialism.

I think that a very essential thing to a building of a society, is to include everyone. Therefore i call myself socialist. I know it´s a bit controversial on the other side of the atlantic.
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ButterThumbz
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  • #2
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 17:59
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Always thought of myself as a bit of a socialist (in the democratic sense) but socialism comes in a lot of flavours and means very different things to different people. One things for sure, this unbridled capitalism doesn't seem to be working out for 99% of us.

Last edited by ButterThumbz on 01/22/2013 18:01; edited 1 time in total
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junodog4
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  • #3
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 18:00
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Oh dear... Naples will be all over this one. Prepare for an avalanche of Obama-labeling.
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  • #4
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 18:00
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I used to be far more vocal and militant when I was younger, but I still describe myself as a socialist. The problem with the far-left in the UK is that there is no unity (there are those who think Trotsky was a useless hippie who only worked to hinder the great work of Lenin; there are others who see him as some sort of messianic figure who stayed true to the cause whilst Lenin lost sight of what really mattered; there are people like me who sit somewhere in the middle), and therefore no one party to rally behind. In fact, it is only in the fight against fascism that the hard left is ever in agreement, and since nobody likes fascists anyway this is hardly surprising or of particular benefit to the wider, more pertinent (as of right now) cause(s). Britain does have a strong history of great left-wing politicians (the Attlee government, which contained one of my personal heroes in Nye Bevan (who, incidentally, was kicked out of the Labour Party briefly in 1939 for arguing that there needed to be a unified socialist party in Britain), brought in the National Health Service, a service which remains one of the best in the world, despite what the Republican Party of America would have you believe), and whilst that makes me proud, it also saddens me to see their legacy left almost in tatters amidst petty squabbling between the various hard left parties and an increasingly right-wing Labour Party.

I subscribe to the Gramsci school of thought whereby the working classes need to educate themselves in order to gain a greater understanding of the evils of capitalism, but throughout the latter part of the 20th century the economic boom only served to convince the West that capitalism works and thus planted an apathy within the working classes, based somewhat on the argument that, "well, we live in a nicer house now than twenty years ago, and that's enough for me". I don't believe the UK needs a violent, bloody revolution right now (although I do think that the Russian, Cuban and Chinese revolutions were some of the greatest happenings of the 20th century, sadly tarnished by the subsequent actions of an increasingly paranoid and power-hungry few), but I do think it is in dire need of a significant tilt to the left. Unfortunately, we as a people are under the control of the banks (as are the media, and without a significant media campaign it will take a lot to convince people that our way is the correct way), and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I would like to state that I am a firm believer in democracy too, although I think our society, in the UK, is a democracy in name only. It's still better than many other societies, but that doesn't mean a far fairer alternative isn't available. There does, however, need to be one to rally behind, and as of this moment there just isn't. I've mellowed far too much, and have far too many issues with many on the far-left in this country (including some very active members of various parties who I know, to one extent or another, personally) to be a part of helping to come up with that alternative. My view is that once they can put aside their petty differences (often over little more than semantics) then I'll happily get involved, and I've told this to numerous people who have been trying to convince me for years.

On a separate note, I guess I have often looked closely at myself for preaching the above message whilst enjoying all the benefits capitalism brings (my wardrobe is made up of Nike, Adidas, North Face, etc.; I eat at McDonald's and KFC from time to time), but people who argue that you cannot be a socialist whilst taking advantage of these things are ultimately idiots. I'm a pragmatic socialist first and foremost, and arguing for equality for the working classes does not mean I have to wear second hand corduroys or live in a squat. The society we live in is a capitalist one, and I've been brought up to accept its' benefits whilst questioning its' motives. I'll continue to do so, hopefully (one day soon) as part of a unified British socialist party.


Last edited by Guest on 01/22/2013 18:07; edited 1 time in total
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ButterThumbz
I always used to wonder if she wore false ears


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  • #5
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 18:07
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Great post. Vote Nezzle!
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Jackwc
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  • #6
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 18:27
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I'm pretty big on laissez-faire capitalism, but I think socialism is essential to help promote development in developing countries.
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junodog4
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  • #7
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 21:44
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Society needs to strike a balance.

Too much government involvement, and the people get entitled.

Too little government involvement, and people fall through the cracks.

Where I find we often miss the boat in N. America is regarding government regulation. Done well, it serves to protect both business, the environment, and individuals from unscrupulous practices and carelessness. Unfortunately, when done poorly it becomes the ubiquitous 'red tape' that those on the right rail against. Too much regulation can choke innovation and development. However, without regulation of the housing industry and accompanying finances, the US saw the housing bubble collapse of 2007. Without environmental or labour regulation with teeth, we see the BPs, Enbridges and Wal-Marts of the world poisoning water and habitat and exploiting workers. By nature, corporations lack humanity. They exist to make money and increase share price. We need government regulations to ensure they account for other important goals.

My 2 cents.
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HigherThanTheSun



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  • #8
  • Posted: 01/22/2013 23:54
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I am certainly not a big fan of neoliberal economics or libertarianism but I also would definitely not call myself a socialist. I think most people who aren't nutcases believe in a mixed market economy and most people who describe themselves as capitalist or socialist are just positioning themselves to the right or left of the current centre ground of politics, they're mostly used as relative rather than absolute terms.

Obviously the state has a role to play in society, don't try and tell me our country would be better off without any social programs or any sort of regulation. Equally you won't convince me that the private sector doesn't have a role to play and that everyone should be employed, clothed and fed by the state because I'll think you're nuts. Like I say I support a mixed market economy like the entire rest of the world does. Talking relatively and in relation to the current state of affairs in the UK, I definitely would not vote for a party who support privatisation of public services or significant deregulation of the labour market. So I suppose as far as the UK goes I'm slightly left of centre.

Jackwc wrote:
I'm pretty big on laissez-faire capitalism, but I think socialism is essential to help promote development in developing countries.


I feel the complete opposite.
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  • #9
  • Posted: 01/23/2013 00:05
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lethalnezzle wrote:
I used to be far more vocal and militant when I was younger, but I still describe myself as a socialist. The problem with the far-left in the UK is that there is no unity (there are those who think Trotsky was a useless hippie who only worked to hinder the great work of Lenin; there are others who see him as some sort of messianic figure who stayed true to the cause whilst Lenin lost sight of what really mattered; there are people like me who sit somewhere in the middle), and therefore no one party to rally behind. In fact, it is only in the fight against fascism that the hard left is ever in agreement, and since nobody likes fascists anyway this is hardly surprising or of particular benefit to the wider, more pertinent (as of right now) cause(s). Britain does have a strong history of great left-wing politicians (the Attlee government, which contained one of my personal heroes in Nye Bevan (who, incidentally, was kicked out of the Labour Party briefly in 1939 for arguing that there needed to be a unified socialist party in Britain), brought in the National Health Service, a service which remains one of the best in the world, despite what the Republican Party of America would have you believe), and whilst that makes me proud, it also saddens me to see their legacy left almost in tatters amidst petty squabbling between the various hard left parties and an increasingly right-wing Labour Party.

I subscribe to the Gramsci school of thought whereby the working classes need to educate themselves in order to gain a greater understanding of the evils of capitalism, but throughout the latter part of the 20th century the economic boom only served to convince the West that capitalism works and thus planted an apathy within the working classes, based somewhat on the argument that, "well, we live in a nicer house now than twenty years ago, and that's enough for me". I don't believe the UK needs a violent, bloody revolution right now (although I do think that the Russian, Cuban and Chinese revolutions were some of the greatest happenings of the 20th century, sadly tarnished by the subsequent actions of an increasingly paranoid and power-hungry few), but I do think it is in dire need of a significant tilt to the left. Unfortunately, we as a people are under the control of the banks (as are the media, and without a significant media campaign it will take a lot to convince people that our way is the correct way), and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I would like to state that I am a firm believer in democracy too, although I think our society, in the UK, is a democracy in name only. It's still better than many other societies, but that doesn't mean a far fairer alternative isn't available. There does, however, need to be one to rally behind, and as of this moment there just isn't. I've mellowed far too much, and have far too many issues with many on the far-left in this country (including some very active members of various parties who I know, to one extent or another, personally) to be a part of helping to come up with that alternative. My view is that once they can put aside their petty differences (often over little more than semantics) then I'll happily get involved, and I've told this to numerous people who have been trying to convince me for years.

On a separate note, I guess I have often looked closely at myself for preaching the above message whilst enjoying all the benefits capitalism brings (my wardrobe is made up of Nike, Adidas, North Face, etc.; I eat at McDonald's and KFC from time to time), but people who argue that you cannot be a socialist whilst taking advantage of these things are ultimately idiots. I'm a pragmatic socialist first and foremost, and arguing for equality for the working classes does not mean I have to wear second hand corduroys or live in a squat. The society we live in is a capitalist one, and I've been brought up to accept its' benefits whilst questioning its' motives. I'll continue to do so, hopefully (one day soon) as part of a unified British socialist party.


I can't begin to tell you how much I love you right now for articulating far better than I ever could how I feel about UK leftist politics. I so wish I could introduce you to my Grandad (who is my hero)... you and him would get on like a house on fire. Apart from him you are the first person I have met who even knows what the Gramsci school is (and stands for).. let alone subscribes to it!
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  • #10
  • Posted: 01/23/2013 00:15
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HigherThanTheSun wrote:
I am certainly not a big fan of neoliberal economics or libertarianism but I also would definitely not call myself a socialist. I think most people who aren't nutcases believe in a mixed market economy and most people who describe themselves as capitalist or socialist are just positioning themselves to the right or left of the current centre ground of politics, they're mostly used as relative rather than absolute terms.

Obviously the state has a role to play in society, don't try and tell me our country would be better off without any social programs or any sort of regulation. Equally you won't convince me that the private sector doesn't have a role to play and that everyone should be employed, clothed and fed by the state because I'll think you're nuts. Like I say I support a mixed market economy like the entire rest of the world does. Talking relatively and in relation to the current state of affairs in the UK, I definitely would not vote for a party who support privatisation of public services or significant deregulation of the labour market. So I suppose as far as the UK goes I'm slightly left of centre.


I agree with this to a large extent, although I am significantly further to the left. Obviously the idea that we should be "clothed and fed by the state" sounds ridiculous when you take it to mean a 1984-style "everyone wears grey overalls, on Tuesdays you'll eat bangers and mash" set-in-stone regime, but I'm certainly not against a large-scale takeover of private corporations (not all, but certain select types of business) and subsequent public employment with a strict, fairly equal wage system (i.e. everyone earns somewhere between £25,000 and £50,000 per year (these are totally hypothetical rough figures thrown in to support a vague sketch of an idea put into complete layman's terms, so please don't think I'm actually this naive), and nobody earns wages on either side of that threshold). If one of the things that comes with that is the idea that each family gets a certain amount of money to spend of food or clothing, then so be it. This also hopefully won't (in my admittedly ill thought out, vague sketch of a utopian vision) "scare off" massive multinationals - if the public demand for their product is there, there is no reason not to import certain goods to be made available to the public. If this makes me "nuts" then fair enough, although as I stated in my original post I am now far too mellow and disenfranchised with the far left to truly fight for this. It's just something I believe would benefit society. Like you, I'm all for a fairer mixed market economy. But my idea of a fair mixed market economy is about 75-80% public (that is, proportion of people dependent on public sector work). I imagine yours would be closer to 30-35% (although I'm loathe to assume what you actually want, I'm just basing this on the talk of moderate lefties I know). Anyway, with a bit of convincing you'll come around. Either that, or you'll be up against the wall with the rest of the dissidents*.

































































































*only joking.
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