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Defago
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HigherThanTheSun wrote:

Ugh, by this argument every single action ever has been a selfish one and the word just becomes redundant. It's pretty clear when we were talking about economics that we were talking about money and material goods as a motivation that makes people selfish, not the happiness that one might get from helping orphans, seriously how does that tie in with your argument you were making for capitalism, at all?

I'm not entirely sure how we ended up discussing rationality and selfishness, but as I said before I'd love to get back on track.

And yes every single action ever has been a selfish one, according to the Homo Oeconomicus model and most of neoclassical economics. It's a necessary condition to matematize utility functions and demand, so it's not redundant economics-wise. This ain't my own opinion, anyways, it's a mainstream theory which is pretty much canon with neoclassical economists, I happen to agree. I barely mentioned selfishness and rationality, so it's not any attempt of mine to tie in with anything. It's not my intention to antagonize everyone who's ever done a good action.

Jasonconfused
If We Make It We Can All Sit Back and Laugh

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Defago wrote:

Does helping people out give you a good feeling - of accomplishment, of doing something good for someone? That's a return on your actions. The feeling of doing what you believe is right is another return on your actions. I believe the use of the same word "selfish" has differing connotations for you and me. I don't believe everyone does everything for money, far from it. But everyone does everything because it gives them something back - be it money, happiness, a sense of accomplishment, entertainment, a feeling of doing what's right, etc. Hell, I'm going to help organize a christmas event for a bunch of impoverished schools, I'm not getting paid for it. I still think I'm doing it for selfish reasons - I'll feel good about myself, seeing the kids happy will make me happy and I'll probably have fun. If I didn't feel good about myself for doing so, I didn't like seeing kids happy and thought I wouldn't have fun, I wouldn't be helping them. The selfishness I'm trying to defend here is not money selfishness or physical selfishness only: anything which makes you happy counts as "your own interests", regardless of what it is.

Excellent argument in favor of socialism Applause

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Jackwc
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Defago wrote:

The selfishness I'm trying to defend here is not money selfishness or physical selfishness only: anything which makes you happy counts as "your own interests", regardless of what it is.

But therein lies the thing - if people are motivated to do selfless acts because it makes them feel good, then that proves there is a driving incentive among men to do good. Whether or not their motivations are wholly personal don't matter, helping others helping others makes us feel good and not helping others makes us feel bad, and that alone puts a wedge in your argument.

People volunteer their time for free all the time. Just because they might be using it to satisfy their mirror neurons doesn't necessarily invalidate it.
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Defago
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Mancsoulsister wrote:

Ah I see... The shifting sands of selfishness again.... Smile

So you are now agreeing (contrary to your original comment) that people do work hard if they are not getting paid for it (purely for the altruistic enjoyment of helping others)? And you are also agreeing that people will invest money (without getting a capital return) for the altruistic enjoyment of seeing other people happy and thereby enjoying themselves? This again is altruism and doing something out of the goodness of your heart with no capital return!

My first use of the selfish term was in the middle of an attempt to compare capitalism and socialism. I used a simple definition, because I did not think we'd end up dissecting that exact word - I was hoping to get the whole argument dissected instead. Yes, people can do things not for monetary gain but for the enjoyment of helping others or just for the fun. In the context in which we were debating, though, I did not think it necessary to specify all of this. We were talking about workers and investors - the amount of investors who invest without looking for monetary returns is minimal, as is the amount of workers who rescind their pay and just work for the joys of being in the factory. If we're trying to explain the backbones and rough workings of capitalism and socialism, we don't need to complicate ourselves needlessly.

I haven't changed my meaning of selfishness, I've been making my explanation of it more deep.

Quote:

Everything is something to be profited from - we're rational, selfish beings and it can't be any other way.

In the context of capitalism vs socialism, I found it redundant to go on a multiple paragraph explanation about how selfishness can also include non-material returns.

Quote:

We're selfish as individuals in the sense we always worry about our own necessities before worrying about the necessities of the rest. Being selfish is not something bad in itself, it's the extremes which are more worrying. Also, slavery and racism are NOT comparable with selfishness.

This was, admittedly, badly worded. Meant to express any action anyone takes is always to further one's interests. These interests not necessarily mean money - can also mean enjoyment out of seeing your children grow up healthy and so on.

Quote:

orry, I wasn't completely clear there. "You" should be taken to mean "you and your closely loved ones", usually your family and close friends. Parents usually include their children and people under their care as part of "them". So you place your (and your family/close ones) well-being before the rest of the world's - that's the definition of selfishness I was alluding to.

Attempt at explaining how your close ones being happy make you happy, which is why you make them happy.

And then you have my final explanation in the last post. I'm not a native English speaker, so I apologize for any confusion caused. I've been going deeper and deeper with the meaning and connotations of "selfish", which I explained extremely simply at first and, for some reason, came under the spotlight.

I'd greatly enjoy having any of you guys explain your ideal economic system, as I did with mine, so we can debate economics, which is the intent of the thread.

Defago
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Age: 31
Location: Lima

Jasonconfused wrote:

Excellent argument in favor of socialism Applause

Sigh. I have yet to see you make one.

Defago
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Age: 31
Location: Lima

Jackwc wrote:

But therein lies the thing - if people are motivated to do selfless acts because it makes them feel good, then that proves there is a driving incentive among men to do good. Whether or not their motivations are wholly personal don't matter, helping others helping others makes us feel good and not helping others makes us feel bad, and that alone puts a wedge in your argument.

People volunteer their time for free all the time. Just because they might be using it to satisfy their mirror neurons doesn't necessarily invalidate it.

Some people get a lot of enjoyment out of being charitable, and others don't. It's a spectrum. Still, everyone does what they do because of this "happiness" or "enjoyment", so no action is truly entirely selfless.

I never said anything about invalidating anything. I'm just attempting to explain why people do things. As I've said before, selfishness from this point of view doesn't carry a bad connotation! Each person will do what the things which give him happiness, be it in the form of money, fun or the feeling of having done good.

Jackwc
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Defago wrote:

Sigh. I have yet to see you make one.

Hahaha, for real though. No offense Jason, but I think you're only into socialism because you think it's fashionable.
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ButterThumbz
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Defago wrote:

Some people get a lot of enjoyment out of being charitable, and others don't. It's a spectrum. Still, everyone does what they do because of this "happiness" or "enjoyment", so no action is truly entirely selfless.

Just reading an article about the most common regrets people have on their death beds. Number 5 was "I wish that I had let myself be happier."

It seems there are a great number of us who don't do what we do for happiness.

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Jackwc wrote:

Hahaha, for real though. No offense Jason, but I think you're only into socialism because you think it's fashionable.

And you are only into capitalism because you are trying to be different...

No offence or anything!

Rolling Eyes

Jackwc
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Mancsoulsister wrote:

And you are only into capitalism because you are trying to be different...

No offence or anything!

Rolling Eyes

Now I ain't got no beefs with socialism, I think both systems have their pros and their cons, and both systems are highly susceptible to corruption and require a good new revolution every once in a while to shake things up - I mean, as I said, next election I'm likely voting a socialist - I think both systems greatly underestimate the capacity of collective human greed. I lean towards a more capitalist system simply for the fact that it encourages greater innovation and because I don't trust the competence of government (perhaps because I'm from a city where the mayor smokes crack), but overall I don't believe a socialist system couldn't function just as well.

It's this idealism, however, that the root of all western problems stem from capitalism, as Jason is erroneously trying to prove, that makes no sense to me and sounds more like juvenile anti-establishment bile than anything else.
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