Too dumb for Democracy?

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Poll: Are we too dumb for Democracy?
Hell no!
4%
 4%  [1]
You're darn tootin'!
17%
 17%  [4]
You kiss your momma with that mouth?
17%
 17%  [4]
Yeah, sure, whatever!
17%
 17%  [4]
Say what?
8%
 8%  [2]
Ain't this a republic?
4%
 4%  [1]
Get off my lawn!
30%
 30%  [7]
Total Votes : 23

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ButterThumbz
I always used to wonder if she wore false ears


Gender: Male
Age: 53
Location: O'er the hills and far away
United Kingdom

  • #1
  • Posted: 02/03/2013 15:03
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The recent announcement in the UK of Cameron's promise of an EU "in/out" referendum if he wins the next election has been troubling me.

I probably lean towards remaining part of the EU but, if I'm honest, I have no real idea what would be best for the future of this country. What I do know, however, is the reasoning behind the idea of democratically electing a government. It's so we can choose a bunch off people specially skilled in knowing how to run a country in our best interests.

The reaction of a lot of people to this news of a referendum has been along the lines of "Finally, someone is asking us what we think" forgetting that's exactly what they are asked ever time there's an election. It seems to me that if the guy at the top is asking the masses what he should do about such issues then surely that mean he doesn't know what to do, therefore is not fit to be elected.

This week I listened to very interesting podcast by American political commentator Dan Carlin which I felt really got to the bottom of the issue here.

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/a/6/6/a662e9fac7...id=5358790


Last edited by ButterThumbz on 02/03/2013 23:31; edited 2 times in total
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Puncture Repair





  • #2
  • Posted: 02/03/2013 15:55
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Yes we are, but it's the best system we've got.
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19loveless91
mag. druž. inf



Slovenia

  • #3
  • Posted: 02/03/2013 16:19
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Well the mindset on referendums in my country is completely different. Here, we had plenty of referendums (on a variety of more or less vital laws) in recent years, which in effect also meant that no real progress was made in relation to the economic crisis. The main problem is, that in order for a referendum to happen, you only needed to get enough signatures, and with unions being as powerful as they are, that wasn't a big problem to overcome.
It's a funny situation, as everybody thinks something has to change, but nobody wants to allow changes in their "field".

Lately, there has been an effort (by politicians) to change the law about referendums, but of course, with that, they only gave another reason for the protesters to be pissed off about. We've got a lot of angry folks in this country nowadays Confused . Though not without reason.

I'm not totally sure what to think about everything. I don't really agree with the whole "referendums are the sign of true democracy" BS I hear here, but I also disagree with this:
Quote:
It seems to me that if the guy at the top is asking the masses what he should do about such issues then surely that mean he doesn't know what to do, therefore is not fit to be elected

If he (and other parties/politicians) can't present the situation to the people, and the consequences each decision will bring, then he might not be fit to be elected. If he does not represent the will of the people properly, he might not be fit to be elected either. If you think that, once elected, the leading politicians should act however they think is best, then it's not really democracy we're talking about, is it?

Eh, I don't know... There's a good joke, that is related to the title of this thread: "Best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with an average voter"
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ButterThumbz
I always used to wonder if she wore false ears


Gender: Male
Age: 53
Location: O'er the hills and far away
United Kingdom

  • #4
  • Posted: 02/03/2013 20:41
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19loveless91 wrote:
Well the mindset on referendums in my country is completely different. Here, we had plenty of referendums (on a variety of more or less vital laws) in recent years, which in effect also meant that no real progress was made in relation to the economic crisis.


They're pretty rare over here. We've only ever had 2 referendums that involved the whole of the UK.

19loveless91 wrote:

If he (and other parties/politicians) can't present the situation to the people, and the consequences each decision will bring, then he might not be fit to be elected. If he does not represent the will of the people properly, he might not be fit to be elected either. If you think that, once elected, the leading politicians should act however they think is best, then it's not really democracy we're talking about, is it?


My problem is, he should be stating his view on the matter and the implications of his preferred course of action. If those intentions represent the will of the people then he will be successful in the next election.

By promising to have a referendum, he either genuinely doesn't know what to do about Europe or he knows what he should do and is merely dangling a democratic carrot, flattering us with the idea the we'll make the right choice, keeping him in power so he can do what he wanted to do in the first place. Both of these would seem undesirable in a potential prime minister... Then again, you should probably take what I say with a pinch of salt because I wouldn't vote for him anyway.


Last edited by ButterThumbz on 02/03/2013 23:34; edited 3 times in total
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ButterThumbz
I always used to wonder if she wore false ears


Gender: Male
Age: 53
Location: O'er the hills and far away
United Kingdom

  • #5
  • Posted: 02/03/2013 20:43
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Puncture Repair wrote:
Yes we are, but it's the best system we've got.


As mentioned in the podcast, a better system might be one that educated people sufficiently.
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junodog4
Future Grumpy Old Man


Gender: Male
Location: Calgary
Canada

  • #6
  • Posted: 02/04/2013 16:38
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Both Canadian and American politics are heavily flavoured with the ideas of Leo Strauss - essentially, that democratic leaders can manipulate the ignorant masses... Just look at campaign ads, spin-doctoring and wagging the dog.
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ButterThumbz
I always used to wonder if she wore false ears


Gender: Male
Age: 53
Location: O'er the hills and far away
United Kingdom

  • #7
  • Posted: 02/04/2013 16:58
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junodog4 wrote:
Both Canadian and American politics are heavily flavoured with the ideas of Leo Strauss - essentially, that democratic leaders can manipulate the ignorant masses... Just look at campaign ads, spin-doctoring and wagging the dog.


I heard there's a lot of evidence to suggest that, in the states, whoever spends the most on campaigning wins the election. If that's true, it's not even a democracy if candidates are essentially just buying their way into power.

“Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do what we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” ~ Bill Hicks.
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HigherThanTheSun



Gender: Male
Age: 32
Location: UK
United Kingdom

  • #8
  • Posted: 02/04/2013 23:58
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He's promised a referendum should the Cons win a majority in 2015 so people know what they're voting for if they vote Cons. I don't really mind referendums though and I think people who opposed them are normally just scared of the outcome as I imagine is the case here.

Yeah most of the population are far too ignorant of the subject to make an informed decision but I'd rather the public decide than be patronisingly told that the issue is too complex for them, I mean if the public aren't to be trusted here then why trust them to elect politicians in the first place? Also, if a referendum actually started to look like a possibility (which it isn't atm) then I think people would start to think a lot harder about the issue and I would hope that anyone who actually voted in a referendum would know at least a bit about what they were voting for.

The EU is going to change quite a bit over the next few years and I actually trust Cameron more than I would Miliband or Clegg to get the best deal for the UK.
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Jasonconfused
If We Make It We Can All Sit Back and Laugh


Gender: Male
Location: Washington
United States

  • #9
  • Posted: 02/05/2013 00:16
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I have family members that have the right to vote that I wish didn't... so yea.. we're too dumb.
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Happymeal





  • #10
  • Posted: 02/05/2013 03:39
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Meh, I've never experienced dumb people often enough. I live in Connecticut, we have brains in our brains.
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