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SquishypuffDave



Gender: Male
Age: 33
Australia

  • #411
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 05:19
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bongritsu wrote:
I mentioned earlyer in this thread that liberalism has replaced christian piety as a vehicle for post class status signaling.


Actually kind of agree.

bongritsu wrote:
Liberalism is inherently shallow and selfish. Churches challenges you to become a better person. social liberalism flops around teaching you that there are no consequences, for you and others, to your actions.


Liberalism is geared towards helping the poor and disadvantaged, which is like 99% of the gospel. GK Chesterton was both passionately liberal and passionately religious.

Trees can be either evergreen or deciduous.
Pigs are not evergreen.
Therefore pigs are deciduous.
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Saoirse





  • #412
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 09:34
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I completely agree that religion or "liberalism" (which Im taking, Bong, you essentially mean as liberal secularism) as their own idea are not shallow or wrong-headed- only people are, and both are born out of, yes, the ideas of the people. The problem with both is that yes some can focus less on what they value from that particular belief and how it can connect with them others who both share and disagree with their own personal worldviews, and instead focus on why those who have adverse takes on varying world issues are dead wrong and need to be fought against. Both can cut people off from that outside world and lead to rather shallow, retrogressive views. And that problem also goes far beyond just the clash of modern liberal and more conservative religious beliefs.

I do take issue Bong, though, in how you framed the argument- you put forth Liberalism and Religion as if they're completely exclusive and can't be shared by a single individual (or at least that's how it came across). There are many who follow religion and also have a rather liberal worldview, and believe it or not the lessons passed on from that guy we simply know as Jesus fall more in line with modern liberalism than modern conservatism (given this was long before the birth of industrial enterprise, but I doubt if he lived in the 20th century he would've said "don't heal the sick if their check doesn't clear"). Even within a single organized religion, individual worshippers can all interpret it differently, as well as taking different sides to a particulary relevant issue- and the flow and discussion of contrasting ideas is to be encouraged and keeps religion (or any organization or shared-belief system in general) from growing static or increasingly closed-off from the modern world- not something to be supressed as if it's tarnishing a supposedly perfect-but-rather-gilded spit-and-shine surface.

No given though even though Ive both been baptized and practiced Judaism, now I really don't follow any religion, mainly cause I don't want to live my life just scratching a hypothetical back in the hope some mighty spirit doesn't rip out my spine and the hope I eventually get sent to an eternal, magical netherworld. Just happen to believe it's far more important in this lifetime to value, and focus on, what's here on earth and the people living in it than spend more time fearing or expecting what one's post-fate existience just might happen to be (and again, to be fair, that's not everybody's take on religion either). And I do have friends and loved ones who are both deeply religious and quite conservative, but you know what we get along beautifully- we know that bond between each other is far greater than the importance of playing tug-of-war with our different views of both the world and how to live our own lives.

And yes Bong that's probably why we have a lot of heated arguments here because we don't know each other personally and have very, very different views of the world and how it should work, but we can come to an understanding to both sides of the particular issue at hand, even if never find an absolute agreement.

And bong please do though, you've mentioned this several times already, what do you really mean "specifically" with "post-class status signaling"? What "classes" or "class status" does christian piety need to protect, and if you do support a class system, why do people need to be seperated into that in the first place?


Last edited by Saoirse on 05/31/2015 11:58; edited 1 time in total
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Applerill
Autistic Princess <3


Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago
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  • #413
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 10:09
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Bong luvs Jesus, but he done learned a lot from Satan.
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WindowAbove



Gender: Male
Age: 25
Location: Iowa
United States

  • #414
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 16:37
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I think that people on the internet are very negative in general but especially towards religion. People on the internet, including BEA, will dismiss religion entirely saying retarded hateful shit about how it creates all evil and how people who believe in God are stupid (and when I was 13 I was one of these people). While it is true that religious beliefs have led to many horrible conflicts throughout history, this is due to bastardization and misuse of religious thoughts, as Ben pointed out. While I am not religious myself, I see value in teaching of religious beliefs as religion teaches moral values and teaching of good from bad, such as compassion and kindness. Religion is great for instilling good actions and moral values in people. I've known more asshole atheists attacking those of faith than the other way around. On BEA, I've seen some disgusting horrible attacks on people like JMan and JOSweetheart for their faith and on other parts on the internet I've seen people think that all Christians are evil hatefilled (lolironic) retards. The idea of a God can be comforting because people can think that in times of distress and adversity, a God is looking over them and helping them. Also, while I don't really believe in either theory, the idea of the world being created by something like a god makes more sense to me than it forming out of nothing.

And one thing I've noticed is that people on the internet often will just follow the opinion of something they see online, such as "the Bible teaches selling kids into slavery" and "the government is evil and watches everything we do" and "100% of all police officers are racists who try to kill black people" without thinking for themselves and looking into things. They'll just see something and believe that because it's so threatening to them or they think that it's a newly discovered truth. I know this because I was one of these people and I believed all of those three things before realizing that they may be bullshit. Just have your own opinion and look into things yourself.
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HigherThanTheSun



Gender: Male
Age: 32
Location: UK
United Kingdom

  • #415
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 20:41
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bongritsu wrote:
Its less about the augment of gay marriage and more about the fact that liberalism is the new religion and they are just as bigoted toward religious people and rightwingers as religious people and right wingers were ever to gay people except with no reasons past personal shrillness. They like to picture themselves as paragons of virtue but they really are not.


Judging people for thoughts/opinions/actions is reasonable (it's how people should be judged) in a way that judging for innate characteristics like race/gender/sexuality isn't. They're not comparable.

The way that extreme social conservative opinions (ie gays are pedos) are now marginalised is nothing compared to the way in which the same people who hold those opinions would marginalise others (ie return to 50s attitudes to sexuality/race/gender). So it's a bit of joke for someone like this to cry like they're a victim. Aka the idea that your struggle now as a rightwinger is anything to the struggle a gay person would face in a world where your right wing opinion on gay people was the predominant one, is mental.

I'm completely comfortable with people catching flak for backwards social opinions and tbh I'd be disappointed if they didn't. That it's somehow bigoted to stand up to bigotry is a paradox

bongritsu wrote:
Liberalism is inherently shallow and selfish.. social liberalism flops around teaching you that there are no consequences, for you and others, to your actions.


no?
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Applerill
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Gender: Female
Age: 30
Location: Chicago
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  • #416
  • Posted: 05/31/2015 22:09
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Guys, if you've heard my documentary album

Document by Little Earthquakes,
You'd know that I grew up in an extremeeellllyyyyyy right-wing family. Like, Overstreet family right-wing.

I cannot remember any time when I was discriminated against as a conservative. And when I see other conservatives complain about being "persecuted", it really just sounds like them being upset that they no longer have it their way. You can argue that things like Indiana are "persecution", but at best, that is completely unrelated to religious persecution.

Moreover, as I think about my personal moves towards progressivism, it's impossible for me to disconnect them from trying to be a better person. When progressives politely point out "social injustices" others are making, they aren't doing so to be holier than thou, but to really help friends that are going through pain I can't begin to understand. On the other hand, when I see people like my brother join Men's Rights groups and speak out against gays, I don't see piety, but selfishness and an unwillingness to look at any issue that doesn't affect them (which I guess shouldn't be surprising, since that's a naked tenet of Objectivism). Simply put, I don't even know how I can go back to Bong's view without turning myself back into a Neanderthal.
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benpaco
Who's gonna watch you die?



Age: 27
Location: California
United States

  • #417
  • Posted: 06/01/2015 00:37
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WindowAbove wrote:
While I am not religious myself, I see value in teaching of religious beliefs as religion teaches moral values and teaching of good from bad, such as compassion and kindness. Religion is great for instilling good actions and moral values in people. I've known more asshole atheists attacking those of faith than the other way around. On BEA, I've seen some disgusting horrible attacks on people like JMan and JOSweetheart for their faith and on other parts on the internet I've seen people think that all Christians are evil hatefilled (lolironic) retards. The idea of a God can be comforting because people can think that in times of distress and adversity, a God is looking over them and helping them. Also, while I don't really believe in either theory, the idea of the world being created by something like a god makes more sense to me than it forming out of nothing.


Yeah I mean I was raised by a fairly religious mother and a father rooted in Jewish tradition but who does not believe in God himself. I think had I been raised by 2 totally nonreligious people, I may well have turned out the same way as I am now. But being raised in a religion taught me certain values that are good to have, but you can find those same values through music, nature, life, etc. I treat God kind of as an imaginary friend, he's great to have around when you're little and need an explanation and I aged out of him. (That sounds mean, but that's what it was for me.) I still pray, just not to "God", just in general, more to send out good vibes.

This is all getting a bit off topic though, which essentially should just be "Don't hate people. Don't hate them for being religious, don't hate them for being gay, don't hate them for being liberal. Problems arise from individual people with problems unrelated to those things."
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Saoirse





  • #418
  • Posted: 06/01/2015 07:50
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I do say again I think the legalization of same-sex marriage should always be viewed as a vital and just plain humane leap forward for equality rather than a victory against "bigoted right-wingers", as viewing it from that mindset only puts the strive for greater LGBTQ-heterosexual understanding (which is the real underlying key to these monumental bills getting passed) back a few steps more. However, yes, Bong you really need to stop putting your foot in your mouth by saying somehow the sometimes vindictive or "us-vs-them" mentality of SOME liberal supporters of same-sex marriage is anything remotely comparable to the bigotry that homosexuals have gone throughout modern history; opposing gay marriage isn't a punishable-by-death offense, nobody's listing it as a mental disorder and no one's taking away legal protections for housing and employment discrimination away because of it. But yes, I do think it's important to look at the passage of same-sex marriage as a gateway to trying to achieve common-ground to those who may see things differently rather than something akin to a great battle won over an enemy, but those who promote discrimination and anti-LGBT bigotry trying to say their the victims here and also choose to attack the supporters and deflect the main issue at hand, only similary fans the flames to a much more hypocritical, and ridiculously hyperbolic, degree (given see yes that is a bit of a negative interpretation I know, but it's impossible here to make a valid point without a stern point-of-view). Blatant bigotry claiming opposing views as also-bigotry does not make it any less bigoted.

Given just like some see Conservatism or "Christian Piety" through adversarial, negative goggles based on their own biases (and yes perhaps some of us who have clashed with you in the past Bong may seem more eager to pick at the holes of your opposing viewpoints rather than look at them with more direct earnesty), you're clearly looking at liberalism and it's values through your own negative, narrow viewfinder as well. Again Liberalism and Christianity are not in themselves bigoted or shallow- that's the fault of those who interpret it and other supposedly clashing belief systems through a negative, warrior-like mentality, rather than how it can lead to one striving for a better world, not only for themselves and like believers, but for everybody and everything. [/list]
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JOSweetHeart



Gender: Female
Age: 41
Location: East Tennessee

  • #419
  • Posted: 06/26/2015 22:56
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So I've heard the news that was announced today. I know that I may stand alone on this, but to me, this song says everything. Smile Smile Smile


Link


God bless you and Aaron always!!! Smile Smile Smile

Holly
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sp4cetiger





  • #420
  • Posted: 06/26/2015 23:11
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It's hard not to feel a little schadenfreude when oppressors feel marginalized for not being allowed to carry out their oppression. It's very little, though, as I'm sure their discomfort pales in comparison to the pain they've caused.
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