Best Ever Albums

Re: Downloading out of print albums

kramerfan86 — Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:58:45 GMT

Author: kramerfan86

Posted: 06/16/2012 04:58

On the subject of independent shops I buy used from them whenever I can but their new album prices are just too unreasonable for me. For instance I recently bought an album on amazon, new in one of my local stores it was 10 dollars more expensive than the amazon price. Im willing to try and support local, but Im not willing to sit around and get priced gouged with a smile on my face to do it.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

videoheadcleaner — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:33:30 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 06/16/2012 00:33

I now live in a country twin and we have one store that sells CDs but at a price I really don't want to pay ($25 for a new album). When I venture back to Adelaide, I go to any independent store I can and I usually find some good gems. There is the yellow and black monster called JB HiFi that takes my money from time to time. But lately, the albums I am searching for are not in these stores.

I have resorted for many years downloading music just to discover artists that I can't spent $25 on to find out I don't like the album. I use eBay and Amazon to get albums I have enjoyed after downloading. I have used iTunes at times but I like having physical copies of my favourite albums.

Beginning of this year, I did get obsessed with music by JG Thirlwell and tried to find what I could. In any Aussie store, I have had no luck. Even on auction sites it has been hard. Luckily that Thirlwell's website has reasonably priced albums so might need to purchase from there.

To answer the question as a whole and to sum up, I do not see a problem in downloading out of print albums. If you hear it and love it, keep trying to find it. We all want to support our favourite artists and do the right thing in purchasing their music through the right channels. But sometimes we don't get what we want. We are in an age that music is a click away and buying an album isn't far removed from that. Keep buying music but diversify if you need to.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:03:25 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/15/2012 23:03

Fine, no victim card.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Romanelli — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:49:37 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 06/15/2012 22:49

The Poe wrote:

Romanelli

I don’t have much of a care for being right or wrong when speaking out opinions usually. My thoughts on “making their money live” is more of a suggestion than a concrete, this-is-exactly-how-I-see-the-world, sort of thing.

Anyway, I get the impression that you are playing some sort of victim card when sharing your experiences to gain some level of remorse to try to color your argument, rather than purely make a logical statement. Lots of people do this though. On your overall point, and I’ll be up-front here: not much of what you said meant anything to me. I do think it was interesting. But still you are one person, one musician. I would prefer statistics on a large number, and then learn through that if what I am suggesting cannot be done. And I mean, entirely, cannot-be-done. Even if only one in ten-thousand can do it, that’s good enough for me. Very few people “make-it” in this sort of business in general, and just because most people don’t does not necessarily mean the world should change.

Also, the things stated in your post are relevant to another thing that I said in another post, where my vague point was about finding new ways to sell during the information age brought by the internet. The Gregory Brothers come to mind. Yea, I know, that auto-tune-the-news stuff. And yea, their music is unconventional and all that. They are still a good example IMO. They managed to gain fame through Youtube, and through that, sell singles on iTunes, which I believe paid for their tour. And I’m pretty sure they made some money overall.

And lastly, about the integrity of BEA members who don’t buy music. Someone makes a chart, and whether this person never even spent a penny on music, they are still sharing knowledge. If their chart gains any level of recognition, it has most likely influenced at least a few people to buy an album that they would not have otherwise bought, or maybe even have ever known about.

As a side note, downloading “illegally” is not nearly the same as stealing something from, say, a store in the mall. Money is lost when a physical item is stolen. No money can actually be lost on a download as far as I can tell. The abuser of a download link, which takes only several clicks to find, are getting a copy that takes zero dollars to create.

"Victim Card"?

🙄

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:10:31 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/15/2012 22:10

Romanelli

I don’t have much of a care for being right or wrong when speaking out opinions usually. My thoughts on “making their money live” is more of a suggestion than a concrete, this-is-exactly-how-I-see-the-world, sort of thing.

Anyway, I get the impression that you are playing some sort of victim card when sharing your experiences to gain some level of remorse to try to color your argument, rather than purely make a logical statement. Lots of people do this though. On your overall point, and I’ll be up-front here: not much of what you said meant anything to me. I do think it was interesting. But still you are one person, one musician. I would prefer statistics on a large number, and then learn through that if what I am suggesting cannot be done. And I mean, entirely, cannot-be-done. Even if only one in ten-thousand can do it, that’s good enough for me. Very few people “make-it” in this sort of business in general, and just because most people don’t does not necessarily mean the world should change.

Also, the things stated in your post are relevant to another thing that I said in another post, where my vague point was about finding new ways to sell during the information age brought by the internet. The Gregory Brothers come to mind. Yea, I know, that auto-tune-the-news stuff. And yea, their music is unconventional and all that. They are still a good example IMO. They managed to gain fame through Youtube, and through that, sell singles on iTunes, which I believe paid for their tour. And I’m pretty sure they made some money overall.

And lastly, about the integrity of BEA members who don’t buy music. Someone makes a chart, and whether this person never even spent a penny on music, they are still sharing knowledge. If their chart gains any level of recognition, it has most likely influenced at least a few people to buy an album that they would not have otherwise bought, or maybe even have ever known about.

As a side note, downloading “illegally” is not nearly the same as stealing something from, say, a store in the mall. Money is lost when a physical item is stolen. No money can actually be lost on a download as far as I can tell. The abuser of a download link, which takes only several clicks to find, are getting a copy that takes zero dollars to create.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

alelsupreme — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:57:27 GMT

Author: alelsupreme

Posted: 06/15/2012 19:57

I use Spotify and download the albums I can't get. I have very little money being 15 and having no job so downloading is my only option.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Romanelli — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:25:32 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 06/15/2012 19:25

The Poe wrote:

I think music should be shared freely and without restriction. Bands can make their money through live performances.

But I am thinking about getting hard copies of the music albums I become more attached to over time, just for the sake of a physical collection. Digital collections aren't as satisfying for me.

This is an interesting idea. Let me tell you how this works for me.

I don't have a record deal, so I had to pay for the recording of my album myself. This included musicians, engineering, studio time, driving, meals, mastering, photography, printing, publishing, re-production, shipping, and delivery. Since I don't have the promotion that comes with a label, I also had to pay for advertising, submissions to labels and management companies, more musicians to be in my live band, promotional packages to get gigs, and rehearsal space. Living in Los Angeles at the time, I can truthfully tell you that every live show I played that consisted of original music came with the cost of the face value of enough tickets for the venue to make money. You can sell some...but if you don't sell them all, you have to give them away so that there are enough people in the club that they will have you back. I paid more money playing my music live than I ever made.

Without a label, I also did not have the ability to tour...I couldn't afford it. The only way people outside of my home town could hear my music was what was available online. So, I ask you this: with as much as the recording and promotion of my album cost me, do you think it's fair for people to take my music without paying for it when I have not designated those tracks for free? I worked hard to make that album, and I worked hard to promote it. If you created a product, spent your time and money producing it, how happy would you be if people just took it from you and didn't pay for it?

Not to mention that there are people (songwriters) who do NOT perform live with the band who only get paid through royalties. What about them?

Now, let's say I DID have a label. Sure, they would put up the money for the recording, and the promotion, and all of that. But don't think that the labels just do that out of the goodness of their hearts. They put that money up...and they want it back. Plus profit. The really big acts make their money playing live. More than you think live from venue to venue just getting by. It's unfair to say that bands should just make their money from live shows and not get paid for their recorded works. And if it were you, you'd see that a LOT differently.

As for us, we're not casual listeners here. This site is full of people who take their music seriously. Seriously enough to build large collections and make charts and rate and comment on thousands of songs and albums. And I have to say that seeing people especially HERE who have so little respect for the works of bands as to take their albums for free, then turn around and dedicate so much time and effort and enjoyment into the same works of those same bands...reeks, to me, of hypocrisy.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Applerill — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:14:11 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 06/15/2012 17:14

noWaxJim wrote:

Interesting point this (especially as you mention Beggars (as it used to be) in Kingston, which I've been to many times over the years). I think it's more the independent records shops rather than the musicians who suffer if you download music illegally (after all, bands/artists will not only have gig revenue but also merch, PRS money and licensing opportunities to fall back on). Which is a big part of the reason I tend not to download any new or still in-print albums and hence why I avoid services such as iTunes like the proverbial bargepole.

If it had not been for shops like Banquet, The Rock Box in Camberley and countless shops in Central London (Sounds of The Universe, Sister Ray, Dub Vendor to name but 3) I would not have discovered or bought at least half of the records I own. Fine, use the internet to discover new music by all means, but when it comes to the crunch there is no better feeling than befriending the person behind the counter of your local independent record shop and getting their advice on what undiscovered musical pearls to go for next. I don't think it's a question of morals - I think it's a question of owning the tangible product rather than pieces of data on a hard drive/iPod, and giving the emporiums without whom there would be no music industry some sort of recompense. Screw HMV and the like, though - they've become more like a Currys/Comet/Radio Shack (for those US readers) than a record shop, and all the worse for it.

In terms of obtaining out-of-print material, I have absolutely no qualms in downloading it for free as if shops don't stock it and you aren't able to get hold of the material by any alternative means (expect perhaps for eBay, but then you're paying money to a sweaty, bearded collector 9 times out of 10) no-one's really missing out. That said, if the opportunity arose to own said LP and it didn't mean I'd have to remortage my house to get it, I would most likely indulge.

Bottom line - downloading (illegal or otherwise) is killing the small record shop industry. As I imagine all of us are on this site because we have an intrinsic and dedicated love of music, we all have a responsibility not to let it. Buy your next album from your local indie. It'll feel better than giving money to charity, and you may just discover something else you'd never heard before into the bargain.

BUT DUDE, I WUB JEFF BEZOS!!! ARE YOU TELLIN MEH THAT MAH $20 PURCHASE OF THE IDLER WHEEL VINYLS IS MAKING PEOPLE HOMLESS!??!?!?!

Yeah, I'm sorry, but while I see your point, I think the damage is done. There aren't any record stores in my area (the closest thing to it is an awesome used bookstore nearby), so Amazon is my best friend.

So, is it bad to buy off big online (physical) shops like that?

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Jimmy Dread — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:49:27 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 06/15/2012 14:49

lethalnezzle wrote:

I download every new release I fancy listening to, and if I like something I then ask my local indie record store (Banquet Records in Kingston, in case you ask) to order it in for me. Obviously, with my favourite artists I don't even bother downloading first as I know I will buy the album when it is released.

I understand your principles, but I am not affluent enough to buy 4 or 5 albums a week.

Also, don't feel guilty about illegally downloading albums you can't find. I'm sure the artist themselves would encourage it (mostly).

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Mirek — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 05:50:48 GMT

Author: Mirek

Posted: 06/15/2012 09:50

Romanelli wrote:

There are a few albums that have eluded me over the years. If I find them, I will buy them so that I can finally have them in hand. Victory will be mine.

Of course, I could download them. But that would be, to me, kind of like really wanting a hot girl and then seeing that she did a nude spread. I could download those pictures and have them for whatever fantasies I wanted to play out alone...but in the morning, I still havent met her, and I still haven't physically had her. I've cheated myself.

I'll wait until I can find and buy the physical album.

I've got the same. And finaly when I find it, I'am ... 😁

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:23:20 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/15/2012 03:23

paladisiac wrote:

imo, the two main issues are:

01) morality
02) legality

I'm not sure what the legal precedent is for downloading a copy of an album because it's not for sale, hasn't been for sale in a while, and isn't for sale in the foreseeable future. The main reason the RIAA went after people was they were trying to protect sales ($$!) of their artist catalog. I expect this is technically illegal; however, i don't think anyone will notice as it's out of print..

When it comes to morality, how about this answer (if feasible) ? Download the album and then find the artist's website and contact them saying you want to donate $ to them. You don't even have to tell them why, but you can elaborate that you want to support them because you like their music and hope that your $ will go toward reprinting the CD/mp3-online in the future .

(P.S. The RIAA would hate that idea. They say they're trying to protect their artists, but their artists rarely see any money from album sales. Of course, I'm talking about the RIAA -- i'm not sure if that applies in the case of the artist you're interested in.)

just want to say, this post is brilliant �'�

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:39:03 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/15/2012 00:39

HigherThanTheSun wrote:

Well spotify has adverts on it doesn't it? I guess that's similar to what you're saying although you don't actually own a copy of anything on spotify.

Maybe. I ain't know nuthin' about Spotify. Never used it. I've just used file search engines since getting into music several months ago.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

HigherThanTheSun — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:00:01 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 06/15/2012 00:00

The Poe wrote:

I'd tell them to cope, but I get what you are saying. Well, you might watch television shows without paying for the specific show. How do they make their money before hard copies and priced downloads are made? Maybe bands could have a similar method. Make a webpage with a free and easy download on it, but when you type and enter the address an entire minute-long commercial is played before fully entering. I'm not a business major so I don't know how effective it would be, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Well spotify has adverts on it doesn't it? I guess that's similar to what you're saying although you don't actually own a copy of anything on spotify.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:14:42 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/14/2012 22:14

lethalnezzle wrote:

Whilst I agree with this in principle, what about artists like Daniel Johnston and Green Gartside from Scritti Politti who suffer from severe stagefright? I know there are exceptions to everything, and I am to a certain extent just playing devil's advocate, but how do you suggest they make a living (not those two in particular, just people with this problem in general)?

Re: Downloading out of print albums

kramerfan86 — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:43:24 GMT

Author: kramerfan86

Posted: 06/14/2012 21:43

Personally I dont see any problem from a moral standpoint with downloading out of print material. the industry at that point has put you in a position where there is no other way to get the material. I also dont have a problem with downloading things which for whatever reason arent in print in a particular country and therefore are impossible to get at a remotely reasonable price. To me if you are openly saying "we really have no interest in you as a potential customer" then you have lost any moral right to lecture me on the download. Im sure the law is on their side, but I highly doubt the RIAA is looking for "pirates" of material they arent even trying to sell. I very very very rarely download anymore though thanks to spotify.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Romanelli — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:40:48 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 06/14/2012 21:40

There are a few albums that have eluded me over the years. If I find them, I will buy them so that I can finally have them in hand. Victory will be mine.

Of course, I could download them. But that would be, to me, kind of like really wanting a hot girl and then seeing that she did a nude spread. I could download those pictures and have them for whatever fantasies I wanted to play out alone...but in the morning, I still havent met her, and I still haven't physically had her. I've cheated myself.

I'll wait until I can find and buy the physical album.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:09:58 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/14/2012 19:09

The Poe wrote:

I think music should be shared freely and without restriction. Bands can make their money through live performances.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:00:05 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/14/2012 19:00

I think music should be shared freely and without restriction. Bands can make their money through live performances.

But I am thinking about getting hard copies of the music albums I become more attached to over time, just for the sake of a physical collection. Digital collections aren't as satisfying for me.

Re: Downloading out of print albums

dp39 — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:45:37 GMT

Author: dp39

Posted: 06/14/2012 18:45

I listen to a ton of old school rare rap CD's that have gone out of print. Hypothetically, if I were to download music... I would download all of the out of print albums you can get. Forget morals, do you want to pay $200 for an album that might blow, or get it for free?

Re: Downloading out of print albums

HigherThanTheSun — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 14:28:24 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 06/14/2012 18:28

lethalnezzle wrote:

I couldn't possibly comment on neo-Nazi black metal (it's not my thing), but I regularly help to line-up the pockets of serial homophobes and misogynists. I try not to think about it and just enjoy the music.

Yeah sometimes the racism, sexism and homophobia can be hard to stomach in hip hop, just can't help myself though.

Racism in hip hop:
http://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/vi...p;start=30

As for downloading, well I do it all illegally and I don't feel bad about it at all, is that wrong?