Best Ever Albums

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:29:57 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/06/2013 12:29

Well, how did this happen?

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

videoheadcleaner — Thu, 6 Jun 2013 07:07:24 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 06/06/2013 11:07

The image file you have tried to retrieve has been lost.

14-11

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

meccalecca — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:07:44 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 06/04/2013 20:07

Norman Bates wrote:

Interesting discussion here. If I may had my stone to wall that's already done building, I don't even think of The Jam of "punk", let alone "post-punk". I think it's a band that took advantage of a feeling that was going around to air their music, was associated with punk, then discarded the whole thing altogether, and went on with their stuff. Weller was never a punk. Which doesn't take anything away from their music: I really like The Jam very much.

Exactly. I think if a band's in a certain place at a certain time they'll just get roped into it by the powers that be. It's kind of similar to how The Afghan Whigs would get the grunge label attached to them at times even though they really didn't fit that scene at all.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Norman Bates — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 15:50:49 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 06/04/2013 19:50

Interesting discussion here. If I may had my stone to wall that's already done building, I don't even think of The Jam of "punk", let alone "post-punk". I think it's a band that took advantage of a feeling that was going around to air their music, was associated with punk, then discarded the whole thing altogether, and went on with their stuff. Weller was never a punk. Which doesn't take anything away from their music: I really like The Jam very much.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 15:45:53 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/04/2013 19:45

meccalecca wrote:

I totally get what you're saying about the UK vs US, and know you're not a fan of genre classification anyway.

If the info on wiki is right, then I guess based on formation, The Jam predates a bunch of bands we're calling punk. Thoguh you could just as easily just called The Jam mods.

I do have a hard time calling Television the beginning of post-punk though. They were the heart and soul of the NY punk scene. Built the first stage at CBGBs. Sonically it may make sense to call them post-punk, but they were playing shows in 1974 which predates most bands considered punk.

We'll just have to agree that classification is ridiculous

Yeah, fair enough. I agree, I actually have no problem with The Jam being in the tournament anymore. They're as valid a nomination as anyone, sincerely. Good points, well made.

And yeah, classification is ridiculous.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

meccalecca — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 15:23:02 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 06/04/2013 19:23

lethalnezzle wrote:

True, the lines do blur, and I know the same arguments could be made for any number of bands in this tournament. I did allude to the difference in chronology of UK and US punk, and even though The Jam were around at the same time as Television or the Talking Heads, England were already behind in that sense. I don't consider post-punk as starting in England until 1978. In New York punk started earlier (The Ramones first record came out in early 1976, by which time they'd already been doing that live for like 18 months). I think, given the geographical context, that post-punk had already begun by 1977 in NY, what with Television et al, whilst it certainly hadn't here yet. Christ, punk had barely started. Anyway, I knew it was a sort of fruitless point, and I hope I didn't come across as having sour grapes because PIL are losing. In any genre tournament there are bound to be arguments, given the flexible nature of genres themselves, but The Jam were a band that particularly stood out to me as a strange nomination.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 14:05:24 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/04/2013 18:05

meccalecca wrote:

I agree, but this whole tournament is loaded with bands which really don't fit within post-pun/new wave. I know Norman Bates was arguing this early on. Franz Ferdinand, The National, The Strokes...etc really don't fit.

The Jam are at least from generally the right time period and I think Blondie, Television, Talking Heads all came within the first wave of punk, so you could make the same argument about them that you did with The Jam. The lines just blur.

That said, I voted PIL.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

meccalecca — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:58:30 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 06/04/2013 17:58

lethalnezzle wrote:

It had occurred to me previously - and I'm not just saying this because the band I'd like to see win are losing - that The Jam aren't what I would consider a post-punk or new wave act.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:41:56 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/04/2013 17:41

It had occurred to me previously - and I'm not just saying this because the band I'd like to see win are losing - that The Jam aren't what I would consider a post-punk or new wave act. I see them first and foremost as a punk band. I know the labels are often interchangeable, and blah blah genre labels mean nothing blah blah, and yes I've done a fair bit of moaning about which bands I think fit these genres (and yes that is hypocritical given the fact I nominated Prince), but I don't see The Pistols or The Clash or The Damned or The Buzzcocks in this tournament. Yes, The Jam recorded up until 1982, and much of their music was somewhat poppier than much of what you'd normally consider punk (lending a bit of credence to the idea that they might be new wave, I guess), but exactly the same things can be said of The Clash. I don't consider post-punk as having started until 1978, pretty much with the breakup of The Pistols (and when - and apologies for banging the same drum repeatedly, but if it means more people go out and read the book then fantastic - Simon Reynolds begins his book on the subject). I wasn't around for punk obviously, but my dad was and he's always spoke of The Jam as a first wave of UK punk band. 'In The City' (their debut single) was released in early 1977 (I know Television were nominated, and that Marquee Moon came out in early 1977 too, but the chronology of UK punk and US punk are two totally different things; in New York punk was happening in '74/'75, whereas the first punk single in the UK, The Damned's 'New Rose', didn't come out until late 1976, and the Spiral Scratch EP, arguably the most important UK punk record, was a 1977 release). Surely if we'd have been allowed to nominate punk bands who later evolved beyond punk, we'd have The Clash in this tournament? Someone would've nominated them. I just see The Jam as a punk band, and whilst I have no problem with a punk band winning this matchup or even this tournament in theory, it would seem a bit unfair given that no other first wave UK punk bands made it in.

I know I should've questioned their inclusion earlier, and I'm not asking for them to be taken out, given how much time and effort has gone into this tournament and, largely, because I don't think they'll win it to be perfectly honest. If I'm being honest, I think they were a far sight more consistent than PIL over the course of their career and, despite my promotion of one horse in particular, I did actually have to think for a brief second before voting. 'The Butterfly Collector' is as good a pop song as any of those early punks wrote. I'm just whingeing as per usual. But yeah, they managed to slip under the radar a bit I think. I've certainly never considered them as a post-punk or new wave band at all, and their absence from that book I keep going on about backs that up. They're a punk band, and their inclusion seems a bit fortunate given the fact that no other first wave punk bands, quite rightly, were nominated or were allowed to be nominated, as far as I'm aware.

But yeah, apologies for constant moaning about who fits what label. I'm really enjoying this tournament Harkan, so please don't think I'm being ungrateful. Just thought I'd share yet another issue about what bands fit my definition of post-punk or new wave.

Lastly, vote PIL if you haven't already.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

drakonium — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 15:26:21 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/03/2013 19:26

OK, so I just listened to PIL's first album, and it was very, very good. Much more punky that what I expected in fact. I'm not sure whether I like it more or less than The Jam's first, which I absolutely adore, though. I'll abstain for the moment. I'm not sure my choice will be made before the end of the match, but it was a great discovery anyway 😁

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 15:22:31 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/03/2013 19:22

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

OK, Public Image seem to be in a bit of trouble here and, though they weren't my nomination, I figure I should do a bit of promotion given how much I love them (or, more specifically, given how much I love Metal Box). purple alluded to it in an earlier roundup, but a lot of the groups in this tournament were nominated because of one album in particular. I don't know if that was the case when Jhereko put PIL forward, and without meaning to suggest that their other albums aren't worthwhile (both their debut and The Flowers of Romance are great, the latter being even weirder than Metal Box), but for me Public Image Ltd. means Metal Box. Anyway, I'm not going to a full-blown promo like I've done for my nominations, but I'll post a few quotes from the site and a few tunes, and then maybe a few that aren't from that particular album.

Metal Box

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Norman Bates wrote:

One of my favourite albums ever (I've got it in my top 100 on here). Absolutely amazing, from the crazy preacher-like howling of Lydon, to the amazing bass playing ("Socialist" for Christ's sake!) and the overall atmosphere. Absolutely terrifying, and still danceable.

If you don't know it, or want to know what postpunk was about, well, it's all in here.

Socialists

Link

lethalnezzle wrote:

One of the few albums that I still remember exactly where I was the first time I heard it, and being completely horrified by it. It was my dad's vinyl, in the metal box and it always stuck out like a sore thumb on the shelf next to the other (conventionally packaged) records. I was like 14, and it looked like a time capsule. I put it on and I just remember wondering what the fuck it was. It wasn't like anything I'd ever heard. 'Albatross' did not resemble music remotely, not by the standards of what I'd heard up to that point in my life. I remember my dad, upon seeing that I'd got it out to listen to, asking if I'd liked it and me replying, "I don't know". I still went back to it again and again. I grew to love it, and eventually bought the CD re-issue (in the metal box - so now it sticks out like a sore thumb on the shelf next to my other CD's). A stunning album.

Albatross

Link

hairymarx1 wrote:

'Metal Box' was arguably the first album of its kind that defined the psychedelic dark-punk/post-punk sound. The album, could, more accurately, be described as a groundbreaking amalgam of punk chamber music and acid rock that incorporates elements of African, Middle-Eastern and Jamaican 'dub' influences. The atmosphere is a sinister one in which fear, isolation and anxiety within a post-industrial landscape are heightened by vocalist John Lydon's incessantly mournful and psychotic tones.

Swan Lake

Link

lethalnezzle wrote:

I was terrified when I first heard this album as a child, and it still scares me now to an extent. It so perfectly evokes the smog-filled skies and looming council blocks of London, not to mention that weird sense of isolation and distrust that living in that city brings with it, that it's sometimes difficult to believe that it's the work of human beings, let alone a man who just 18 months previously was still fronting a band whose entire repertoire consisted of sped-up, distorted Chuck Berry riffs. A completely transcendent work of art, and one that - despite many copycat attempts - sounds like nothing else I've ever heard.

Careering

Link

purple wrote:

Jah Wobble stands alongside Mike Watt, Tina Weymouth, Peter Hook, and others as one of the greatest bassists of all time, solely for his work on this album. His basslines are like rubber.

Poptones

Link

Anyways, hopefully that gives you some sort of idea as to how great the album is. Simon Reynolds gives more space to Public Image Ltd. in Rip It Up and Start Again, his incredible book on post-punk, than any other band - it may seem an arbitrary way of measuring a band's importance, or quality, or anything at all really, but I feel it says something. John Lydon has been at the forefront of punk when that broke, and he definitely had a major hand in shaping what came afterwards too. Here a few of my other favourite PIL songs:

Public Image

Link

Fodderstompf

Link

Under the House

Link

I love The Jam, but Public Image Ltd. are something else altogether.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

SuedeSwede — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 14:52:29 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 06/03/2013 18:52

I love Public Image Ltd. and all, but as captain and huge Jam fan...

Link

Link

Link

Just saying.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Norman Bates — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 14:15:12 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 06/03/2013 18:15

Don't get me wrong: I like the Jam very much. But Metal Box...

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

GeevyDallas — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 13:59:00 GMT

Author: GeevyDallas

Posted: 06/03/2013 17:59

Although PiL are dope,The Jam are one of my favourite bands.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

EyeKanFly — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 13:46:53 GMT

Author: EyeKanFly

Posted: 06/03/2013 17:46

I'm gonna have to go with The Jam on this one. I haven't been voting in many of these because for most of the pools I've been way more familiar with one band than the other, but I'm pretty confident in my knowledge of both bands here, and my pick is The Jam. They have the albums and the singles, and some fantastic covers to boot.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

drakonium — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 08:38:29 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/03/2013 12:38

lethalnezzle wrote:

Their debut is far more accessible (though nowhere near as good). Flowers of Romance (their third) is probably even more difficult than Metal Box. So yeah, I'd recommend trying their debut.

Thanks 😮

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 08:23:48 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/03/2013 12:23

drakonium wrote:

OK, so I really hate Metal Box. Is there one other album by PiL that you think I may enjoy? Otherwise, I'll vote The Jam. One of my favorite recent first listens.

Their debut is far more accessible (though nowhere near as good). Flowers of Romance (their third) is probably even more difficult than Metal Box. So yeah, I'd recommend trying their debut.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

drakonium — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 08:18:45 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/03/2013 12:18

OK, so I really hate Metal Box. Is there one other album by PiL that you think I may enjoy? Otherwise, I'll vote The Jam. One of my favorite recent first listens.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 07:18:57 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/03/2013 11:18

The Jam are great, but voted Public Image. Metal Box is an achievement few artists have ever matched.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R2: The Jam def. Public Image Ltd

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:00:25 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/03/2013 10:00

It's PIL for me.