Best Ever Albums

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 11:03:16 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/12/2013 15:03

Just out of curiosity, I looked and my tape list is still online even though I haven't updated it in over seven years. I've added a lot more since then, but it's kind of fun to see it's still there.

http://db.etree.org/gtroda

A lot of bands that I still consider my favorites I really came to love through tape trading: Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, The Allman Brothers Band, Gov't Mule, etc.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 11:00:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/12/2013 15:00

lethalnezzle wrote:

I was brought up in a trader's household, so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say there are literally tens and tens of thousands of bootlegs for some artists, often a dozen different recordings of the same gig, and plenty of the time with totally different names. There are also variations on the cover art for every gig, so that you could end up with three copies of the same show, all with different artwork, different titles and different recording quality. Whilst I understand the desire to be able to add bootlegs to your chart (if I could, Blood On The Tapes might be on my chart, as well as a 1971 Neil Young show that I adore, or even recordings of shows I've been to over the years, regardless of recording quality), it's just a dumb idea. It would be almost impossible for data moderators to check whether or not a particular bootleg even exists, and could just lead to the site being flooded with tons of fake music, music that wasn't even released officially or with the artist's knowledge, let alone permission. I love bootlegs, there are more of them in my parents house than actual albums, and that's saying a lot. But I don't want to see them on this site.

Totally agree with this.

In the late 90s and early 00s I was heavily involved in "tape trading". There used to a bunch of internet forums you could go on and see peoples' tape lists, which were essentially recordings of songs. You could ask someone of they were interested in trading with you and send them your list to look at. You'd work out a few shows that you were interested in and burn them to CD, put them in the mail, and wait a couple weeks for your package to arrive. As with a lot of things, the internet made a lot of that unnecessary. Now you can find bootlegs on other forums dedicated to the purpose and trade them via filesharing or torrents.

As you'd get more into it, you'd find there were these "uber" traders who had special shows that they'd only trade for something really good. Also, recording equipment because a lot more affordable and easier to use. A lot of bands began giving permission for attendees to record their shows if they were intended for personal use or tape trading only. Add in radio, television, or internet broadcasts and this has lead to many shows having multiple recordings in circulation. Now people even can mix together multiple recordings of the same show on their computers to try and come up with what they consider a better sound.

So I say leave all that to the bootleg forums, there are plenty of those out there if you're interested. Let's keep BEA focused on albums that the artists themselves (or their record companies) intended to be released.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

EyeKanFly — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 10:29:27 GMT

Author: EyeKanFly

Posted: 07/12/2013 14:29

Facetious wrote:

I would say undoubtedly yes.

Good to know.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 06:42:37 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/12/2013 10:42

I was brought up in a trader's household, so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say there are literally tens and tens of thousands of bootlegs for some artists, often a dozen different recordings of the same gig, and plenty of the time with totally different names. There are also variations on the cover art for every gig, so that you could end up with three copies of the same show, all with different artwork, different titles and different recording quality. Whilst I understand the desire to be able to add bootlegs to your chart (if I could, Blood On The Tapes might be on my chart, as well as a 1971 Neil Young show that I adore, or even recordings of shows I've been to over the years, regardless of recording quality), it's just a dumb idea. It would be almost impossible for data moderators to check whether or not a particular bootleg even exists, and could just lead to the site being flooded with tons of fake music, music that wasn't even released officially or with the artist's knowledge, let alone permission. I love bootlegs, there are more of them in my parents house than actual albums, and that's saying a lot. But I don't want to see them on this site.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Facetious — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 05:34:35 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 07/12/2013 09:34

EyeKanFly wrote:

Is a band putting up an album on bandcamp official? (I'm not implying I believe one way or another, I'm legitimately asking; I really don't know the answer to this).

I would say undoubtedly yes.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

EyeKanFly — Fri, 12 Jul 2013 03:02:35 GMT

Author: EyeKanFly

Posted: 07/12/2013 07:02

Authorized bootlegs seem fine (Bob Dylan), but "bootleg" usually refers to unauthorized material or material the artist doesn't know about/doesn't want released. So for that reason, I don't think (unauthorized) bootlegs should be included on BEA.

That being said, what makes an "official" release? Is a band putting up an album on bandcamp official? (I'm not implying I believe one way or another, I'm legitimately asking; I really don't know the answer to this).

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

cattlest — Thu, 11 Jul 2013 20:23:56 GMT

Author: cattlest

Posted: 07/12/2013 00:23

there's plenty of good regular albums on here that aren't as of yet represented. I'm not clamoring to add Outcesticide or Fractal Zoom to my chart.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

albummaster — Wed, 10 Jul 2013 02:21:25 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 07/10/2013 06:21

Patman360 wrote:

Bootlegs aren't official releases, therefore making the legality of them questionable. Granted some artists have since released these bootlegs as official, Bob Dylan's bootleg series for example, however the above mentioned Soundgarden album is not an officially released bootleg (To the best of my knowledge). The site only deals with officially released albums I think, otherwise all sorts of illegitimate questionable albums could end up being added to the sites database.

this.

Regards EPs, they need to be 20 minutes or over, or contain at least 5 tracks (slightly more lenient than the common definition of an album which stipulates 25 minutes). If any albums on BEA are breaking these rules, it's only because they haven't been reported/flagged yet (they shouldn't be here).

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 21:45:10 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/10/2013 01:45

Jasonconfused wrote:

Where do we stand on EPs again? I've noticed some EPs have made their way onto the site.

EPs (as far as my understanding goes) are allowed depending on the length.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 21:34:34 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/10/2013 01:34

The simple answer to the question is because the rules say they aren't allowed. But I will hazard a guess as to why...

In general, bootlegs are not sanctioned by the artists themselves. They do not reflect a product that the artist has chosen to represent themselves by. The artists also receive no royalties from bootleg sales. Not to mention the recording and distributing of most bootlegs are technically illegal in many parts of the world. I think that all these reasons are contrary to the main purpose of the site which is to find the "best ever album".

There is also a practicality issue in the fact that there are an enormous amount of bootlegs out there. I would venture that there are more bootlegs available than actual commercially released material. This is certainly true of some jam bands (Grateful Dead, Dave Matthews Band, Phish, etc.) that allow audience members to tape every concert they've ever held. The sheer volume of data for these would probably overwhelm the site. And there is also a fact checking/reliability issue with these.

As mentioned above, there are some artists (Bob Dylan, Pearl Jam, Allman Brothers, etc.) that have released "official bootlegs". Some of these have made their way on the site. I believe these are different because they are officially released by the artists and therefore constitute a legitimate album.

Personally, I have a very large bootleg collection from years of tape trading and downloading from bands who sanction recording of their concerts and radio shows. I could make a very large and detailed bootleg chart if they were allowed. But I still don't think they should be allowed at this time.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Patman360 — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 20:45:23 GMT

Author: Patman360

Posted: 07/10/2013 00:45

Bootlegs aren't official releases, therefore making the legality of them questionable. Granted some artists have since released these bootlegs as official, Bob Dylan's bootleg series for example, however the above mentioned Soundgarden album is not an officially released bootleg (To the best of my knowledge). The site only deals with officially released albums I think, otherwise all sorts of illegitimate questionable albums could end up being added to the sites database.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 20:45:18 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/10/2013 00:45

Jasonconfused wrote:

LOL @ the bold. As for the other thing, who's to say what's a decent gem and what's not so decent? I don't think we should allow bootlegs.

Where do we stand on EPs again? I've noticed some EPs have made their way onto the site.

A: That's like asking "Who's to say if an album is good or not?" People are to say what's good or not. I'm a person, I think AP is a 4-star album. Other people could think other bootlegs are pretty good.

B: EP's can be allowed if they are more than 20 minutes long. In fact, any album on the site CANNOT be less than 20 minutes. AP is 44.5.

C: @PATMAN below me: I don't think AP is all that questionable since the first 30 Google results when you type Soundgarden Apocalyptic Proportions" are for downloading it.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Jasonconfused — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 20:43:02 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 07/10/2013 00:43

JMan wrote:

It's like leaving an album out if it's a live album: we just shouldn't do it. It's also similar, IMO, to racial indifference, only for music. An album's an album, and we should not deny the existence of gems or at least decent gems such as Apocalyptic Proportions just because they never got released.

Re: Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 20:42:23 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/10/2013 00:42

JMan wrote:

I added Apocalyptic Proportions to my list, and it's about to be deleted. I found out by looking at the moderation history that bootlegs aren't allowed on this site. But why? There are great albums that are bootlegs. It's like leaving an album out if it's a live album: we just shouldn't do it. It's also similar, IMO, to racial indifference, only for music. An album's an album, and we should not deny the existence of gems or at least decent gems such as Apocalyptic Proportions just because they never got released.

Also, I'd like to bring back the "Mark Albums as Live, Soundtrack, Bootleg, EP, etc." discussion.

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Why Aren't Bootlegs Allowed Here?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Jul 2013 20:27:40 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 07/10/2013 00:27

I added Apocalyptic Proportions to my list, and it's about to be deleted. I found out by looking at the moderation history that bootlegs aren't allowed on this site. But why? There are great albums that are bootlegs. It's like leaving an album out if it's a live album: we just shouldn't do it. It's also similar to stereotyping musical releases. An album's an album, and we should not deny the existence of gems or at least decent gems such as Apocalyptic Proportions just because they never got released.

Also, I'd like to bring back the "Mark Albums as Live, Soundtrack, Bootleg, EP, etc." discussion.