Best Ever Albums

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

badrocker — Fri, 16 Aug 2013 08:44:36 GMT

Author: badrocker

Posted: 08/16/2013 12:44

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together is the best song from the olden days.

WTF

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

benpaco — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:41:00 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 08/13/2013 21:41

sp4cetiger wrote:

I suppose your wording could have been gentler, but I don't think you should have to apologize for posting your opinion. We can quibble all we want about what songs deserve to be on that list, but if you think those are the only songs that qualify, that's fine. Others are just as free to disagree.

Uh, frankly, I agree that any song should be able to be looked at as the greatest. I shouldn't've limited it to that, talked to a buddy of mine last night frankly and they made a great case for several songs that weren't on that list (Walk This Way, Let's Dance, Eleanor Rigby, and several others). I was being dumb and impulsive and my real opinion is just that if you can make a case for it, then it should be considered. And therefore, any song really should be considered.

lethalnezzle wrote:

OK, for my own sanity I'm only going to say this once. There is no difference between "greatest", "best" and "favourite". My favourite song of all-time is 'International Player's Anthem' by UGK & Outkast. It is subsequently also the "greatest" and the "best" song of all-time. Album sales, popular opinion, radio play, etc., have no bearing whatsover on its quality or "greatness".
But yeah, no worries. I didn't see anything wrong with the wording of what you were saying, I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that "greatness" can be calculated by anything other than an individual's perception of what is "great". If I perceive a song to be the greatest ever, then it is, if only to me, because the idea of greatness, within popular music at any rate, is entirely subjective. It is in the eye (or ear, as it is in this case) of the beholder. No objective measurement can determine greatness, because if I don't like a song then, to me at least, it's not great. Like 'Stairway To Heaven'. It doesn't matter how many people love it, or how many professional critics sing its praises, or how often it gets listened to on Spotify, because I don't enjoy it. I don't think it's a great song, therefore it isn't. You may think it's a great song, therefore it is. That's all there is to it.

I get exactly what you mean by all of that. For greatness, I think there is a personal greatness and an overall greatness. That's the way I perceive it. For me, the greatest songs ever include Love Will Tear Us Apart, 1979, Ms Jackson, lots of songs that several people wouldn't even know. I was looking perhaps more for the most famous and less for the "greatest", and as you've pointed out, great is a very broad and hard to interpret word.

Also I'd like to apologize for my part in getting this thread pretty off topic. But I think this thread has proven one thing. For as much arguing as there is over this topic, no one's gotten mean. No one's name calling, no one's accusing, none of that. That's pretty incredible, really. Most websites, this would've spiraled totally out of control. But it hasn't. OK it has a little, but not in a mean way. And I really do think that's incredible. Glad to have found such a great online community.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:40:11 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 21:40

swedenman wrote:

Perhaps I should just let the dog lie, but I want to add in one little clarification. I used to argue "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity", but I realized a while ago that what I was arguing wasn't that but rather "enjoyability" vs. "greatness". Now, nezzle, you've argued that they should be viewed as the same, and that's certainly a valid stance, but I think there is a slight difference, though it has nothing to do with critical acclaim or sales or popularity. Instead, I define "enjoyability" by the criterion "How much do I enjoy this band/album/song?" whereas I define "greatness" as "How much am I impressed by this band/album/song?"

For example, I've for a long time championed DSOTM as the greatest album I've ever heard (though I know you would disagree, nezzle), and this is because the album feels like a flawless piece of music to me. I enjoy other albums more, but no album is as great of an accomplishment as that one, in my opinion.

I think what sp4cetiger is getting at is that people disagree on what "greatness" is. For that reason, though, I think the whole issue of "greatness" should not be addressed as though it were universal, as it has been in this thread.

Okay, I'm gonna stop before I open a BEA wormhole.

Yeah, I understand that. For example, I think Eminem's one of the greatest rappers ever in terms of technical ability, yet for me he didn't make any of the greatest hip-hop albums ever. Because I think the greatness of a song or album is synonymous with enjoyment. I can accept that an album technically is impressive, but for me that doesn't equal greatness, regardless of whether I can appreciate the talent behind it. Although I do want to stress that I do understand that somebody can be a great musician without being a musician whose work I enjoy. I dunno, it's semantics, but when it comes to what constitutes a great song or a great album, it really does boil down to how much an individual enjoys it. But whatever, it's semantics. I do find it an interesting topic to talk about, if one that's been discussed to death on BEA, but you're probably right; little good can come of its prolonged discussion.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:43:05 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 20:43

Perhaps I should just let the dog lie, but I want to add in one little clarification. I used to argue "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity", but I realized a while ago that what I was arguing wasn't that but rather "enjoyability" vs. "greatness". Now, nezzle, you've argued that they should be viewed as the same, and that's certainly a valid stance, but I think there is a slight difference, though it has nothing to do with critical acclaim or sales or popularity. Instead, I define "enjoyability" by the criterion "How much do I enjoy this band/album/song?" whereas I define "greatness" as "How much am I impressed by this band/album/song?"

For example, I've for a long time championed DSOTM as the greatest album I've ever heard (though I know you would disagree, nezzle), and this is because the album feels like a flawless piece of music to me. I enjoy other albums more, but no album is as great of an accomplishment as that one, in my opinion.

I think what sp4cetiger is getting at is that people disagree on what "greatness" is. For that reason, though, I think the whole issue of "greatness" should not be addressed as though it were universal, as it has been in this thread.

Okay, I'm gonna stop before I open a BEA wormhole.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:28:27 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 19:28

Link

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:14:20 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 19:14

lethalnezzle wrote:

I wasn't attempting to get personal in any way, and I believe you're referring to the question, "Is that because (pop-rock)'s your favourite genre?". That wasn't intended as a snide remark or an insult, but rather as an example of the dangers of trying to decide what is "great" based on anything other than personal opinion. My point is that it's impossible, because each person's experiences guide their thoughts and opinions on what is important historically, culturally and individually. I wasn't attempting to accuse you of not being open to other forms of music, and I know from your chart that you are. I was just pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of trying to decide "greatness" based on supposedly objective criteria that simply cannot actually be measured objectively. In doing so, we run the risk of being accused of being "closed-minded", which is what I was trying to point out (see my continued use of the phrase, "the dangers of..."). I did not mean anything I said as a personal attack on you, though I can see why you think I did and I apologise if I've offended you. I was merely pointing out the problem with the school of thought which says that the "greatness" of a piece of music can be decided by anything other than the individual's opinion. It can't.

Well, I still disagree with you, but I appreciate your apology. I do want to point out that I never once used the word "objective" and that was for good reason. I do believe that every judgement of music is subjective, but judging subjectively does not exclude the use of external factors in making a judgement. The argument is not philosophical, it's semantic. We disagree about what "greatness" is -- we should probably leave it at that.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:12:10 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 19:12

Anyway, apologies everybody for getting into another argument about the 'O'-word. I know it's just about the most boring thing on BEA. Just like The Four Tops, I can't help myself.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Applerill — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:11:19 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 08/13/2013 19:11

meccalecca wrote:

gonna go out on a limb and call Happy Birthday the greatest song of all time. Everyone knows it. It's very popular. And it makes people feel good. Otherwise the greatest piece of music ever recorded is the theme song from Fat Albert

This is the greatest post in the history of the internet.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:01:39 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 19:01

sp4cetiger wrote:

I feel like this is getting very personal and I'm honestly a little too irritated by your attacks to keep going. I think I made it very clear that no song should be excluded from consideration, regardless of genre. I love many songs from a wide variety of genres and I think that should be pretty clear from my album list. The fact that I tend to list rock songs is because that's the genre I know most about and grew up with. If that offends you, you know where you can stick it.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:52:59 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:52

Quote:

I don't see many people dancing to 'Whole Lotta Love' or 'Imagine', or even listening to them for that matter. So where do they stand? You appear to decided that songs from within the pop-rock canon are more important than songs from within other genre's canons (see your previous comment, implying that some songs, whilst obviously very important to a great many people who enjoy certain genres, are only great songs to those people; why is this not true of pop-rock? Is that because it's your favourite genre? This brings me back to my previous point about the dangers of deciding that certain people's collective cultural experiences are more important than other people's), which I find quite offensive and closed-minded.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:49:54 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:49

sp4cetiger wrote:

Wow, you're really putting words in my mouth there. I never said anything about an arbiter, I just said we should talk about whether there are songs we can all relate to. The way I'm trying to communicate it, "greatness" isn't meant to devalue songs that you relate to only on a personal level. In other words, "not great" is different from "bad."

But how do we decide what is "great"? There needs to an arbiter at some point if we are to define something as "great" regardless of personal opinion. Because if you take personal opinion out the equation, then who is to judge what is "great". Society? Whose society? Which society? Which people within that society? The majority? Does that make Justin Bieber great? If I don't think something is "great", am I in the wrong because two people think it is? I just think we're treading on extremely dangerous ice when trying to assume the "greatness" of a piece of music based on things that are inevitably biased by our own personal worldviews. The only way to define "greatness", therefore, is to cut out the middle man and decide it on an individual basis based on our own personal opinion. In other words, "great" is "good", "not great" is "not good".

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:49:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:49

meccalecca wrote:

Who Let The Dogs Out!

🤣

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

meccalecca — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:48:50 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:48

Who Let The Dogs Out!

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:44:42 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:44

sp4cetiger wrote:

I'm not convinced that the Macarena really stood the test of time. I personally don't see many people dancing to it anymore, though maybe I just don't hang with the right crowd. And I certainly didn't say that sales numbers should be the measure of greatness. Songs like the "Macarena" and "Happy Birthday" may appeal to a lot of people, but largely provide a very shallow experience for those people. The former, in fact, was largely a fad.

sp4cetiger wrote:

You say you think that an individual should only judge a song based on how they feel about it, while I value a song's impact on others, even if it isn't my personal favorite. Those are just values -- I doubt we'll be able to argue our way out of them. My main point was simply that a list of individual favorites leaves very little to talk about.

I value a song's impact on others. I can respect that certain songs bring enjoyment to certain people, but if I don't enjoy them then they aren't great. It's as simple as that. And I don't agree that lists of individual favourites (or, y'know, greats) leave little scope for discussion. It's the reason I'm on this site, and I discuss them quite a lot, as do many other users.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:35:37 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:35

lethalnezzle wrote:

Also, I actually find your viewpoint to be quite pessimistic. It implies that we must consult some appointed arbiter of what is actually "great", as opposed to just being able to apply the word to the songs we love. It's quite the opposite of optimistic.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:28:59 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:28

I'm not convinced that the Macarena really stood the test of time. I personally don't see many people dancing to it anymore, though maybe I just don't hang with the right crowd. And I certainly didn't say that sales numbers should be the measure of greatness. Songs like the "Macarena" and "Happy Birthday" may appeal to a lot of people, but largely provide a very shallow experience for those people. The former, in fact, was largely a fad.

I certainly agree that we'll never find a song that *everybody* relates to, but that's a triviality. You say you think that an individual should only judge a song based on how they feel about it, while I value a song's impact on others, even if it isn't my personal favorite. Those are just values -- I doubt we'll be able to argue our way out of them. My main point was simply that a list of individual favorites leaves very little to talk about.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:09:23 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:09

sp4cetiger wrote:

Well, to start, I want to say that I'm not automatically excluding any particular type of song, whether it be "Wut" or "International Player's Anthem" or whatever. I suspect, however, that those songs aren't very familiar to the majority of people. Maybe they would qualify as among the greatest songs of a particular subculture, but the question I'm asking is whether there are songs that all or most of us can relate to, songs that cross subcultural boundaries and which stand the test of time. If a song has no effect on people simply because they weren't around when it was written, then it probably shouldn't qualify. I wasn't born yet when John Lennon wrote "Imagine," but I can certainly relate to it Same with "Stairway."

Yes, but the 'Macarena' is familiar with a whole lot of people, and I don't see people mentioning it among the greatest songs of all-time. Also, there are no songs that all of us can relate to. None. I doubt there are even songs that most of us can relate to, given that we all speak different languages and all have different tastes. 'Stairway To Heaven' hasn't crossed a huge amount of subcultural boundaries, as far as I know. There aren't loads of (primarily) electronic music fans or (primarily) hip-hop fans or punks who hate the idea of long-winded songs or people, like your friend you mentioned in another thread, who disregard popular music altogether that can relate to it. My point is that there are no songs with a truly universal appeal, no songs which are important to everybody, no songs which some subculture doesn't largely dislike, no songs that aren't of absolutely no consequence to the majority of people. Measuring a song's historical or cultural importance is impossible and thus totally arbitrary, and measuring a song's greatness by how many people bought it or how often it's played on radio is clearly ridiculous, given my previous example of the 'Macarena' and the fact that any amount of sales numbers simply cannot guarantee quality. The only way to truly measure a song's greatness is how much a person enjoys said song.

EDIT:

sp4cetiger wrote:

I guess I'm just an eternal optimist.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

meccalecca — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:08:44 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:08

BrandonMeow wrote:

What about You Are My Sunshine? :D

maybe top 100.

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:06:36 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:06

meccalecca wrote:

What about You Are My Sunshine? 😁

Re: Is Stairway To Heaven the greatest piece of music recorded?

meccalecca — Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:05:46 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 08/13/2013 18:05

gonna go out on a limb and call Happy Birthday the greatest song of all time. Everyone knows it. It's very popular. And it makes people feel good. Otherwise the greatest piece of music ever recorded is the theme song from Fat Albert