Best Ever Albums

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:00:06 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 18:00

benpaco wrote:

There's an intensity, a rawness, a pain that is individual. I don't think a computer could dupe me by making it's voice sound as pained as Elliott Smith's for example.

Simply study what is "pained" in Elliott Smith's voice, look for patterns in the pitch, timbre and everything else, reduce the whole thing to numbers and variables, program them into the software, input the numbers into the computer program and... voilà! 😁 You can get a voice which sounds as "pained" as in any Elliott Smith song along with a handy sliding bar which dicatates how much "emotion" goes into the vocals.

benpaco wrote:

I mean, if it can, I still don't know if I'm in favor of it, but if it can, I'd listen to it. It takes away a specialness to it, the story behind it - really, what's an album like Closer without Ian's personal life, or Electro-Shock Blues without the loss of E's sister? There's the stories ... no computer can have those stories. Again, maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

This is actually the one thing a computer program can't do. 😄 If the program is unknown you could hire actors, give them a backstory, do Gorillaz with real people and make it all so convincing. Perhaps they will win awards for their emotional and beautiful piece of music. Perhaps they won't be their to get the awards as you choose the "they are hermits" path to give them a mysterious air. In this way, the music will have a story even if it isn't true. When the truth comes out however and all the real musicians are being diligently watched like the vegan punk fans of the band 'Crass' in the 70s watched each other (You know, are they really vegan? Are they really producing music?) then it would become a lot harder to get away with it. The music which is made by a computer program will be called as it is and if you try to say otherwise, good luck keeping the lie as the amount of listeners grow.

The computer program can't have a story and life experiences.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:36:45 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 17:36

creator wrote:

I don't think I'd feel deceived by computer generated music. If it's good, I'll enjoy it regardless. It sounds strange to emotionally resonate with music not crafted by humans, but I suppose it could string the right words together to trigger some emotion.

Simply improve the computer program. 😄 If you were told an album was created by 3-5 humans each with a conveniently packaged backstory of their lives, would you be able to truly tell? Sounds cold and emotionally void? Improve the computer program until it produces something heartwrenching and soulful. Can only merely "string the right words together"? Improve the computer program until it produces lyrics which can convince anyone, unless told otherwise, this is not the work of a computer program but instead someone with real life experiences, even though it could never grasp the concept of an experience as it can only follow what it has been programmed to do.

Improve the computer program. 😄 In the end it all boils down to that. Sure it's not something we will see until the second half of the century but what can't be emulated? What is truly human which can't be at least flawlessly mimicked?

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:21:56 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 17:21

Norman Bates wrote:

That's the flaw in your story (emphasis mine). Unless you're implying it was programmed by a computer, which was itself programmed by another, programmed itself by yet another... wait, no, it doesn't work :)

Is the computer programmer a musician in this case? 😲 Norman Bates, you've added something else entirely to this.

Like the computer program picks all the lyrics, notes and everything else, deciding on what will work best within the parameters of the programing but the person inputting the commands is technically the musician? They could input it so it works towards a mix of The Smiths 'The Queen Is Dead', Violent Femmes debut and The Flaming Lips 'The Soft Bulletin' and the computer program create something using patturns it notices from each, as well a following rules and cliches when writing contemporary music. In no more than a minute or so the end product comes out sounding exactly as though 4 musicians decided to record an album in 2014 with those albums as their biggest influences.

Perhaps by analyzing trends in what is called 'indie', 'Indie rock', 'indie pop' and 'alternative' it will have a generic idea of what each sounds like even if they overlap a lot when people describe music?

If this computer program is copied to another computer and someone who didn't program it inputted commands and got a bunch of new albums, are they the musician behind the album or would it be the computer programmer? Remember the computer programmer hasn't heard a single sound on the new albums arranged in the way they are, no more different than a keyboard manufacturer who hasn't heard an awesome 2015 single using their product. If it is the person who inputted the commands, they have put in as little work as someone who chooses the map stipulations in their 'Civilization' game. It was the computer program itself who created the map based on the rules and forumla's which were created by the programmers.

I haven't finished reading the rest of the posts yet. I'm not intending it to sound end of the world or doom and gloom. It's a cool idea I have found.

To anyone who believes something by a computer program can't create music which sounds emotional as anything on your chart, what do believe the "human element" is?

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

ButterThumbz — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:19:55 GMT

Author: ButterThumbz

Posted: 03/03/2014 13:19

Link

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Norman Bates — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 02:09:04 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 03/03/2014 07:09

an_outlaw wrote:

No human hands, the computer composed the whole thing using patterns and doing what it was programmed to do.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

drakonium — Mon, 3 Mar 2014 01:32:33 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 03/03/2014 06:32

To be honest, this the first really scary robots-will-take-over-the-world thing I've ever read. I don't really know how I feel about it right now, but I'll think about it. Not sure I'll gather my thoughts in an answer, but thanks anyway outlaw, it was a good read 😄

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

creator — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:58:12 GMT

Author: creator

Posted: 03/03/2014 03:58

We can represent any sound with a matrix of numbers; it's the process that occurs when we convert from analog to digital. I don't think it would be difficult to develop a program that intelligently selected notes to play in sequence based on western tonality (or maybe any tonality?).

I don't think I'd feel deceived by computer generated music. If it's good, I'll enjoy it regardless. It sounds strange to emotionally resonate with music not crafted by humans, but I suppose it could string the right words together to trigger some emotion.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Hammy — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:49:33 GMT

Author: Hammy

Posted: 03/03/2014 03:49

So basically a musical singularity, you may be on to something here. To answer your question a program could create music filled with emotion quite easily... and would I feel duped? probably not. The technology was created by a human after all , if someone creates a program that spawns several masterpieces then why not consider that person a great musician. The program being his instrument.

Would it hold the same level of emotion?.. probably not due to that human element in music, but as technology advances as you put it "the line can be blurred until you couldn't tell one from another".

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:04:09 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 03:04

I like this thread a lot. That's a really interesting question to bring up, outlaw. I agree with benpaco. If Unknown Pleasures was made by a robot, I'd still love it. I just really don't think a computer could ever conceive something like that. Just seems unlikely.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

benpaco — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:54:37 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:54

an_outlaw wrote:

Do you believe there is something "human" a computer program can't emulate? I believe with the right software the line can be blurred until you couldn't tell one from another.

Yeah it's more this. It's not that I wouldn't accept it - if it turned out that Unknown Pleasures was really just a robot, I'd still love it. I just don't think it's possible.

There's an intensity, a rawness, a pain that is individual. I don't think a computer could dupe me by making it's voice sound as pained as Elliott Smith's for example. I mean, if it can, I still don't know if I'm in favor of it, but if it can, I'd listen to it. It takes away a specialness to it, the story behind it - really, what's an album like Closer without Ian's personal life, or Electro-Shock Blues without the loss of E's sister? There's the stories ... no computer can have those stories. Again, maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:38:13 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:38

creator wrote:

Although it's nowhere near the automation you're referencing, Vocaloid takes lyrics and a melody and outputs computer-generated vocals.

See, we have that already. 😄 Now imagine something like this using a tone, pitch, rhythm, harmony, tempo etc to sound like a completely human singer. The computer program creates it all with no input along with it's very own lyrics. Perhaps it is done by using patterns in... well pretty much all the music we have already.

The possibilities are endless. 😄

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:33:03 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:33

benpaco wrote:

Frankly, there's just a human touch to those I'd miss. Pop is already becoming much more computer-relient (not as a whole, I did over specify), and EDM is half computer as is. MAYBE hip hop instrumentals but I'd want human lyrics. Jazz is made incredible by the player, I think, not the song. Reggae and ska both rely so much on humans it just ... I don't like that it could spill over.

If it tried to fool me into believing it was emotional, I think it would either achieve angst well or be able MAYBE to do something like The Antler's Hospice if one doesn't know the lyrics. If that makes sense.

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit rude. You're don't quite have in mind what I described. It may be a miscommunication on my part. I have a hard time putting thoughts into written words.

It's not about "hahaha this genre will be made by robots in the future" and I don't feel there is harm in being... "fooled".

For example, you've living in some year in the next half of the century. Let's say their is an artist called 'The Airborne Toxic Event' who have just released their album. You hear them and you love it. Means a lot to you.
It's better than all the computer generated music which is dominating the charts lately. This is real people playing real music. A computer couldn't create something this emotional. A few years later you find out a computer did. You and a great load of others had been duped. Yes, a computer program made this. It created the music without emotion and you saw (well heard) what you wanted to see like Narcissus.

Is it really a bad thing? I don't think so. You don't have to delete all the music and pretend to everyone it never happened.

It's not about what will be made by computer programs, it's how you deal with it.

Do you believe there is something "human" a computer program can't emulate? I believe with the right software the line can be blurred until you couldn't tell one from another.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

creator — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:15:24 GMT

Author: creator

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:15

Although it's nowhere near the automation you're referencing, Vocaloid takes lyrics and a melody and outputs computer-generated vocals.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

benpaco — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:11:12 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:11

an_outlaw wrote:

Oh it does exist in simple forms right now. Just a few decades more you will have far more than pop and EDM (why those two?) being made. If you create the surficent software you could get down anything from hard rock, jazz, reggae, Hip-Hop including the vocals for any of them.

Might not be as emotional? What if it could fool you into believing it was very emotional? :P

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:00:36 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 02:00

benpaco wrote:

Laurie Anderson's talking stick did just fine already. Wouldn't be shocked if this exists and is good. Might not be as emotional, but a computer could make a pop or EDM song alright, I think.

Re: Computer Generated Music & Albums

benpaco — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 20:53:06 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 03/03/2014 01:53

Laurie Anderson's talking stick did just fine already. Wouldn't be shocked if this exists and is good. Might not be as emotional, but a computer could make a pop or EDM song alright, I think.

Computer Generated Music & Albums

Anonymous — Sun, 2 Mar 2014 20:50:30 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/03/2014 01:50

My initial post is not going to be long as it has only just crossed my mind. The title of the thread does say quite a lot though and make of it what you will.

We're talking music a computer program created. Not a big clunky robot who has traded in its laser gun for a guitar. I'm talking about software. A computer program. There are programs out there already which can create conventional classical pieces following patterns and the like. Before 2100 there is a huge chance a computer program will create a whole album of music which will be given, by some trickster, an incredible, heartrending story about unrequited love and loss. Perhaps they will say the artist disappeared after handing in the album to record company to live the life of a hermit. People will rave over it and they will talk about the emotions inside it. One day (or maybe never at all 😲 ) it will come out the whole thing was produced by a computer program. No human hands, the computer composed the whole thing using patterns and doing what it was programmed to do.

Will you fall for it? Do you believe if you heard anything of such you would see through it even if you had the troubled story of some tortured soul to go with it? You very likely would and I don't think there is any shame in it. Perhaps you believe there is something unique inside a human though. There will always be something uniquely human within music which no machine can replicate. Maybe.

Back to the being duped part, would the music be necessarily bad once you found out you have been had? You've listened to Johnny Bleedingheart and boy has he helped you through a tough time. He's put out what you consider one of the best albums of all time, has that one special song which almost brings a tear to your eye and you can relate and... oh. Some charlatan on the TV has announced there was no Johnny Bleedingheart. All the notes were computer generated. All the lyrics and the vocals too. Their story was even tailored to appeal to your demographic. OUCH indeed!

One question here: can the music still be considered good?

After all it was you who created the emotion, not the computer. You brought your hopes, dreams and aspirations to the music and threw them on as though it were a new canvas. It was you who created the love of the music. Mozart, Bach, Shostakovich, you have no idea how they wanted you to enjoy their pieces yet you still get enjoyment from them. As long as you're feelin it's alright.

How would musicians react in such a world? Would a "punk" like movement form around the art of creating mistakes? Could a computer program with the right software create mistakes for it's pieces? Perhaps musicians will show themselves creating music in the studio? An emphasis on playing live and releasing albums of improv songwriting? Or will others simply embrace the computer programs and be happy who they. Play their shows and release their albums even if computer generated music is dominating the charts above them?

Wow, I've gone on long than I thought here. 😁

In short: issues rising from computer programs creating music indistinguishable from whatever a human could produce right down to the soul.