Best Ever Albums

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Wed, 7 May 2014 09:30:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/07/2014 13:30

I love both, but I have a soft spot for hardcore. Post-punk was more intellectual, but could also be pretentious at times. Hardcore is more flexible, as evidenced by the many different directions taken by its original core, and never purports to be anything more than what it is. Here are my responses to Mercury's original match-ups:

Dead Kennedys vs Gang Of Four?

Wire vs Bad Brains?

Black Flag vs Joy Division?

Minor Threat Discography vs This Nation's Saving Grace

(GI) vs Crazy Rhythms

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Wed, 7 May 2014 04:54:23 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/07/2014 08:54

creator wrote:

Hmm... I forgot about the post-hardcore crossover albums. I'd throw some NoMeansNo in there and we'll have a set of albums on par with some of the best post-punk albums.

That's what I'm talking about! 🤣

newbands1 wrote:

For those interested here are some often overlooked 80's hardcore bands,mostly from the DC scene

This super cheap 3 disc comp on the legendary Dischord Records out of DC is a convenient place to pick some of this stuff up. Pretty essential if you're lazy like me. Give me convenience or give me death. 😜

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

20 Years Of Dischord by Various Artists

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

newbands1 — Wed, 7 May 2014 03:00:56 GMT

Author: newbands1

Posted: 05/07/2014 07:00

For those interested here are some often overlooked 80's hardcore bands,mostly from the DC scene

Link

Link

Link

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Link

Link

Link

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

creator — Tue, 6 May 2014 21:33:15 GMT

Author: creator

Posted: 05/07/2014 01:33

RepoMan wrote:

The Minutemen - Double Nickles (’84)
Meat Puppets - II (’84)
Husker Du - Zen Arcade (’84)

Hmm... I forgot about the post-hardcore crossover albums. I'd throw some NoMeansNo in there and we'll have a set of albums on par with some of the best post-punk albums.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Tue, 6 May 2014 04:30:54 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 08:30

OK. My boss is probably really pist off by now, but this was fun…

First off, as KoolKeithSweat so eloquently described above far better than I ever could, hardcore was not built to last. Thus the best hardcore bands either broke up or evolved into metal (Suicidal Tendencies, Bad Brains, Circle Jerks), freak-folk (Meat Puppets), or even the neighborhood bar band (The Replacements). So in a Post-Punk band legacy vs. Hardcore band legacy debate, it’s not a fair fight. Post-punk will win every time. HOWEVER, approaching this on a purely album basis makes for a more interesting fight. So I framed the debate as two different competing record collections, and if the proverbial gun was placed to my head, which I would viscerally choose.

Since the two genres often blur on some of the best releases, I’ve tried to stick to Mercury’s initial definition as best as possible. When in doubt, American bands went in the hardcore camp. I used 1980 as the benchmark year for both genres give or take 4 years.

tl;dr So I framed the debate as two different competing record collections, and if the proverbial gun was placed to my head, which I would viscerally choose.

Hardcore Record Collection
Circle Jerks - Group Sex (’80)
Black Flag - Damaged (’81)
Minor Threat - EPs (’81, ‘84)
Bad Brains - s/t (’81)
Fear - The Record (’82)
Flipper - Generic (’82)
Negative Approach - Total Recall (’82, ’83)
The Minutemen - Double Nickles (’84)
Meat Puppets - II (’84)
Husker Du - Zen Arcade (’84)

Subs:
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit (’80)
Adolescents - s/t (’81)
Angry Samoans - Back to Samoa (’82)

Post-Punk Record Collection
Devo - Q: Are We Not Men? ('78 )
Pere Ubu - The Modern Dance ('78 )
Wire - Chairs Missing ('78 )
PIL - Metal Box (’79)
Joy Division - Unknown Pleasure (’79)
Gang of Four - Entertainment (’79)
The Feelies - Crazy Rhythms (’80)
Killing Joke - What’s This For (’81)
The Fall - Hex Enducation Hour (’82)
The Cure - Pornography (’83)

Subs:
Magazine - Real Life ('78 )
The Soft Boys - Underwater Moonlight (’80)
Siouxsie & the Banshees - Kaleidoscope (’80)

With out having time to think about, I would immediately snatch the hardcore record selection. No question. Despite Pornograpy being my favorite album of all time.

Aside: Talking Heads were excluded. I can’t think of them as post-punk as hard as I tried. Same with Television. I mean they both played at CBGBs and both just don’t sound post-punk to me. Post-punk is kind of like porn I guess.
Bside: I think X are way overrated.

EDIT: The Mount Rushmore

Hardcore
1. Black Flag
2. Minutemen
3. Minor Threat
4. Negative Approach

subs: Bad Brains, Circle Jerks, Flipper, Husker Du

Post-Punk
1. The Cure
2. Joy Divison
3. PIL
4. Killing Joke

subs:The Fall, Wire, Devo, Siouxsie & the Banshees

Honestly, it's just a bloodbath.
Would love to see Robert Smith and Henry Rollins in a fight. Pure comedy.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Tue, 6 May 2014 01:35:45 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 05:35

Mercury wrote:

Okay, guys, here's a question:
What would you consider to be THE big four of each genre? Like, specifically the Mount Rushmore of each genre group-wise. Like if you had to choose the 4 definitive GODS of each subgenre who would they be?

Then after that is answered how do those top 4 definitive bands stack up against each other?

I used to consider Joy Division (/New Order?), Wire, PIL, and Gang of Four the "big four" of post punk, but these days I'd replace Gang of Four with The Fall not just because of preference but also because of influence et al. reasons (I mean, Gang of Four had one transcendental album and two or three other greats, whereas The Fall has three or four transcendental greats and a longer-lasting influence, perhaps maybe because of Peel).

When it comes to hardcore, it depends on what you define as hardcore. I'd place Black Flag, Minor Threat, and Bad Brains up top, but does something like X, or Gun Club, or FUGAZI, etc. count as hardcore? idk. If I had a gun to my head, I'd say Black Flag, X, Bad Brains, and Minor Threat are the "Mount Rushmore" of hardcore.

Both genres have more than four greats.

All that being said, I think post-punk will always beat out hardcore (at least for me). Hardcore depended upon emotion and appropriation of style, whereas post-punk seemed to depend upon emotion and appropriation tampered with intellectualism, or at least some meditation or reflection on what their music conveyed.

idk, both can be great

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Tue, 6 May 2014 01:08:55 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 05:08

Mercury wrote:

Anyway, lets get at least an additional list here before
I start a new thread.

Ok. Love me a knife fight. 😈

Sharpening my blades. Will have my list posted in a couple of hours. This should be fun. 😄

Link

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

creator — Mon, 5 May 2014 22:18:24 GMT

Author: creator

Posted: 05/06/2014 02:18

I feel like hardcore punk is just an amplification of punk rock. The guitars are lightning fast and the vocals roar. It's awesome if you're in the mood to thrash about, but most of the time I just want to sulk, so post-punk is much more appropriate. I love that post-punk bands warped the basic punk rock sound by experimenting with added instrumentation or ranging tempos. Post-punk/art-punk is the perfect recipe for repressed angst.

I'd probably pick Wire, The Swell Maps, Wipers, and Pere Ubu over Dead Kennedys, Bad Brains, Black Flag, and Minor Threat any day... except when the adrenaline is really kicking. 😁

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Mercury — Mon, 5 May 2014 22:14:55 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 05/06/2014 02:14

RepoMan wrote:

Holy shit! Happymeal was right! Mercuryism exists!!! 😉

But seriously, I think benpaco & i tried to answer your question. we just weren't locked & loaded. :lol:

Haha! Yeah y'all are good people. You especially are a vibrant an creative new force around here! I am very happy you are here.

Anyway, lets get at least an additional list here before
I start a new thread.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:45:11 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:45

Mercury wrote:

Anyway to be the only one to answer my question I will say it goes...

Holy shit! Happymeal was right! Mercuryism exists!!! 😉

But seriously, I think benpaco & i tried to answer your question. we just weren't locked & loaded. 🤣

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

benpaco — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:44:32 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:44

Mercury wrote:

I meant all the genres. Like a Mingus, Parker, Goodman, and Davis mountain of jazz, etc.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:31:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:31

jstreets wrote:

Oh yeah, Our Band Could Be Your Life made me a fan of; Minutemen, Husker, Dinosaur, Burma, Beat Happening, and Big Black (already loved most of the other ones). Also loved the book Please Kill Me, especially the part about Stooges drummer Scott Asheston driving a 14 ft equipment truck under a 12 ft bridge.

Yeah. After reading Please Kill Me, I realized that most of my heroes were freaks. I would be so dead. 🤣

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Mercury — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:31:11 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:31

benpaco wrote:

Can you make this into its own thread I'd kind of love to work this out for every genre ...

I could. . . Not a horrible idea. Actually we could expand it to first wave of NY punk, First wave of UK punk, American Hardcore, Post-Punk. Maybe new Wave also as a separate thing (Costello, Talking Heads, Blondie, etc).

---------

Anyway to be the only one to answer my question I will say it goes...

POST-PUNK

1. Joy Division
2. Wire
3. Gang Of Four
4. Public Image LTD.

Subs - The Fall, The Cure, Echo and The Bunnymen & The Feelies

HARDCORE

1. Black Flag
2. Dead Kennedys
3. Minor Threat
4. Bad Brains

Subs - Misfits, Circle Jerks, Adolescents & Germs

------
Now,

Joy Division > Black Flag
Wire > Dead Kennedys (just barely... Adore both)
Gang Of Four < Minor Threat (Minor Threat is just tooooo good. GoF is also amazing)
PiL < Bad Brains

The subs... Post Punk dominates.

So, I will have to give the edge in this to Post Punk. I may have to renege on my earlier allegiance.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

jstreets — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:12:11 GMT

Author: jstreets

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:12

[quote="RepoMan"]Kickass book, jstreets. I loved it. If u need another fix, [b]Our Band Could Be Your Life[/b] is even BETTER. (Of course, it chronicles my favorite bands of all time so I'm pretty biased. Buy American, dammit! 🤣 )[/quote]

Oh yeah, Our Band Could Be Your Life made me a fan of; Minutemen, Husker, Dinosaur, Burma, Beat Happening, and Big Black (already loved most of the other ones). Also loved the book Please Kill Me, especially the part about Stooges drummer Scott Asheston driving a 14 ft equipment truck under a 12 ft bridge.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:09:31 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:09

benpaco wrote:

Can you make this into its own thread I'd kind of love to work this out for every genre ...

here, here. this would be fun. great call Mercury. Can we make SST it's own genre. Otherwise, it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight. 😈

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 21:06:20 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2014 01:06

jstreets wrote:

I recently purchased the book Rip It Up and Start Again: Post-Punk 78-84. Haven't started it yet but it contains bios on Joy Division, Fall, Pop Group, Talking Heads, Wire, Gang of Four, Mekons, Devo and other greats.

Kickass book, jstreets. I loved it. If u need another fix, Our Band Could Be Your Life is even BETTER. (Of course, it chronicles my favorite bands of all time so I'm pretty biased. Buy American, dammit! 🤣 )

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

benpaco — Mon, 5 May 2014 20:48:58 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 05/06/2014 00:48

Mercury wrote:

Can you make this into its own thread I'd kind of love to work this out for every genre ...

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

jstreets — Mon, 5 May 2014 20:31:19 GMT

Author: jstreets

Posted: 05/06/2014 00:31

While I love hardcore I gotta go with post-punk for the sheer breadth and innovation of the genre. My favorite hardcore album may be Zen Arcade and my favorite post-punk album may be Remain In Light, if you can ever classify Talking Heads in the genre. I recently purchased the book Rip It Up and Start Again: Post-Punk 78-84. Haven't started it yet but it contains bios on Joy Division, Fall, Pop Group, Talking Heads, Wire, Gang of Four, Mekons, Devo and other greats.

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

Mercury — Mon, 5 May 2014 20:06:40 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 05/06/2014 00:06

Okay, guys, here's a question:
What would you consider to be THE big four of each genre? Like, specifically the Mount Rushmore of each genre group-wise. Like if you had to choose the 4 definitive GODS of each subgenre who would they be?

Then after that is answered how do those top 4 definitive bands stack up against each other?

Re: Hardcore Punk versus Post-Punk?

drakonium — Mon, 5 May 2014 16:32:35 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 05/05/2014 20:32

Yes I agree to some extent, it's just that even the Stones could be called proto-punk if we're going to include every single band that influenced any single punk band. Hell, the Beatles could be proto-punk as well, just look at the Undertones.

Even though the term proto-punk does refer to artists that influenced early punk bands, I think the term is more aimed at groups fully dedicated to that energic garage / hard rock style. I mean, it's like post-punk. Every music released after punk isn't post-punk, it's just a particular branch of it, with certain aesthetics, yet a lot of what isn't strictly post-punk was influenced by punk. I view proto-punk in the same way. Break On Through To The Other Side and You Really Got Me sure had a big role in the shaping of punk, for example, but their respective bands were playing a much larger array of style than that angry raw rock, i.e. than proto-punk. But then again, it's just a matter of semantics so it's not that big of a deal.

If you count Doors and Kinks as proto-punk though, then I'm definitely preferring it, these are my two favorite 60s bands 🤣