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Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

monosyllables — Tue, 6 May 2014 13:52:13 GMT

Author: monosyllables

Posted: 05/06/2014 17:52

I saw this on Facebook the other day, and it appeals to the numbers nerd in me. I don't think it says anything objectively about a rapper other than the simple fact of how diverse their lyrics are, but I agree with the general consensus that even if there are no hard rules about how many words you have to use, a significantly limited vocabulary can be grating.
Then again, sometimes that can have its own intentional effect, like when Odd Future just chants "Swag me out, bitch!" over and over and over again. Speaking of, I would have figured that if you counted up all his verses, Tyler at least might've had enough material to get on this list. Am I missing him somewhere in the cluster? Because I feel like he has some weird ass lyrics that would probably contribute to a diverse vocabulary, repetitious use of various slurs notwithstanding.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Hayden — Mon, 5 May 2014 18:57:10 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 05/05/2014 22:57

SilverWalrus wrote:

"Quite a few rappers don’t have enough official material to be included (e.g., Biggie, Kendrick Lamar)."

🤔

I'm surprised by that. Even though they don't have a large amount of albums, they both have at LEAST 5 hours worth of material each. Maybe even more in Kendrick's case.

Anyway, yeah. Cool chart n stuff. Would be interesting to see where Blu and Action Bronson land.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 18:42:09 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/05/2014 22:42

IrishMusichead wrote:

I'm sure there could be some themes in gangsta rap that can be shown from a different perspective. And - hopefully - that has been done before.

Which begs the question: why don't I see Kendrick in this survey? I know it's supposed to be current up to 2012 but I'm pretty sure Kendrick existed beforehand.

"Quite a few rappers don’t have enough official material to be included (e.g., Biggie, Kendrick Lamar)."

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

HazeyTwilight — Mon, 5 May 2014 17:05:21 GMT

Author: HazeyTwilight

Posted: 05/05/2014 21:05

Puncture Repair wrote:

Are you suggesting certain Hip Hop artist have to present themselves as less intelligent or less literate? Concious Hip Hop certainly seems to have typically higher ranks, but there's plenty of gansta rap that is equally well-written.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

swhaze — Mon, 5 May 2014 16:52:43 GMT

Author: swhaze

Posted: 05/05/2014 20:52

Busta Rhymes is a speed demon. I am impressed that he doesn't just reuse the same words over and over. I am surprised that Snoop's vocabulary is so limited. I never pegged him as a genius, but I would have anticipated a little more diversity.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

RockyRaccoon — Mon, 5 May 2014 16:34:50 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 05/05/2014 20:34

Puncture Repair wrote:

I saw after I posted this thread and I felt a little guilty, I was hoping it was something that was mostly new to folk. Still, it's a chart that deserves more attention that it got in the Random Chat, I think.

Oh most definitely, I'm glad you used it, I thought it was really interesting.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Trendall — Mon, 5 May 2014 16:08:32 GMT

Author: Trendall

Posted: 05/05/2014 20:08

From the link -

Quote:

Each word is counted once, so pimps, pimp, pimping, and pimpin are four unique words

If we're considering different spellings of the same word to be different words altogether, then this whole thing becomes less a measure of the breadth of rappers' vocabularies, and more a measure of the consistency of the spelling of whoever uploaded said rappers' lyrics to rapgenius.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

alelsupreme — Mon, 5 May 2014 14:53:08 GMT

Author: alelsupreme

Posted: 05/05/2014 18:53

WindowAbove wrote:

I blame benpaco.

This.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

WindowAbove — Mon, 5 May 2014 14:36:20 GMT

Author: WindowAbove

Posted: 05/05/2014 18:36

alelsupreme wrote:

Obvs an industry man seeking to dumb hip hop down so he can make a monopoly on the business. This list was made so he knew what order to kill 'em off in.

(also if this was done without the aid of software then oh god that's scary)

I blame benpaco.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Norman Bates — Mon, 5 May 2014 14:23:43 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/05/2014 18:23

alelsupreme wrote:

Obvs an industry man seeking to dumb hip hop down so he can make a monopoly on the business. This list was made so he knew what order to kill 'em off in.

Obviously.

You mind-reader you.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

alelsupreme — Mon, 5 May 2014 14:22:22 GMT

Author: alelsupreme

Posted: 05/05/2014 18:22

Norman Bates wrote:

This list is extremely disturbing, I think. i don't get the point of it, what is the compiler trying to prove? Is there a point to prove? How ever does he exploit this data? What's to be done with it? It raises more questions than it answers others.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

ButterThumbz — Mon, 5 May 2014 13:46:29 GMT

Author: ButterThumbz

Posted: 05/05/2014 17:46

Norman Bates wrote:

I don't think it has a point beyond being a bit of fun.

Norman Bates wrote:

It raises more questions than it answers others.

Isn't that a good thing?

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 13:40:21 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/05/2014 17:40

IrishMusichead wrote:

In my opinion, the diversity of the lyrics all depend on the type of genre. There's different categories that hip-hop can fall under (like conscious, hardcore, gangsta). Normally, if an artist falls under one of these categories they would have to present themselves in a certain way.

RockyRaccoon wrote:

That's funny, I actually posted that chart in the musical random chat thread.

SilverWalrus wrote:

I'd say lyrical diversity can be important but is not the end all be all of rapping ability.

I pretty much agree with everything that you said. I do think Aesop Rock goes out his way to make his music sound more impressive, but his strange lyricism and enunciation is what makes him different and entertaining. Of course, talent certainly comes from how you use those words - Aesop Rock may have an impressive dictionary, but some rappers who are towards the middle of the list are considerably better at really capturing an event or an emotion with their words - Aesop Rock totally lacks that.

Accessibility too - something that's easily heard, understood and felt by the masses I think has vastly more value than something that is technically impressive, and simple, but well chosen words are an effective way to do this.

The comparison to Shakespeare is fun, but I don't think it's fair, there were far fewer words in the 17th century. It also demonstrates further how diverse words aren't always necessary to create something great.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Norman Bates — Mon, 5 May 2014 13:34:55 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/05/2014 17:34

This list is extremely disturbing, I think. i don't get the point of it, what is the compiler trying to prove? Is there a point to prove? How ever does he exploit this data? What's to be done with it? It raises more questions than it answers others.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

ButterThumbz — Mon, 5 May 2014 10:17:26 GMT

Author: ButterThumbz

Posted: 05/05/2014 14:17

Nice to see Kool G Rap up there but it's a shame he's not mentioned in the article given how vivid and captivating his lyrics are.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 10:03:09 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/05/2014 14:03

As far as addressing whether lyrical diversity makes a good artist, I'd say it certainly goes some ways but is ultimately lower on the list of what makes a good hip-hop artist. Personally, I've never been all that into Aesop Rock, even though he is technically skilled as a rapper and interesting enough. I just can't really enjoy his music too that great of an extent. It's almost like him and the group of rappers he's part of (a certain sect of backpack rap) make an art and religion out of getting as much out of words as possible, which is interesting and totally respectable, but not something I totally love. With all that said, most of the artists towards the bottom I'm not crazy about, so there may be some degree of lyrical diversity playing a roll in that. My favorite rapper of all time is Q-tip, in part due to a love for Tribe Called Quest in general and in part due to a crazy respect for his abilities, and Tribe Called Quest is square in the middle of these rankings. If I was asked what my opinion ultimately was, I'd say lyrical diversity can be important but is not the end all be all of rapping ability.

Also god damn Wu-Tang

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

RockyRaccoon — Mon, 5 May 2014 08:53:16 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 05/05/2014 12:53

That's funny, I actually posted that chart in the musical random chat thread.

I think it's a really interesting chart, but in the end, I don't think it necessarily implies that a rapper with a more diverse vocabulary is better than others with a less diverse vocabulary. However, I do think having a larger vocab definitely helps, eloquence is great whether just in speech or in music, but I don't think it's necessarily required to make good music. That being said, an extremely limited vocabulary can get obnoxious after awhile, e.g. Lil' Jon's vocabulary of essentially three words.

In essence, I think a large vocabulary is nice, but not necessarily the thing that makes a rapper great. There are too many other things in play that make an album great (e.g. flow, the beat, the production).

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

HazeyTwilight — Mon, 5 May 2014 08:01:33 GMT

Author: HazeyTwilight

Posted: 05/05/2014 12:01

In my opinion, the diversity of the lyrics all depend on the type of genre. There's different categories that hip-hop can fall under (like conscious, hardcore, gangsta). Normally, if an artist falls under one of these categories they would have to present themselves in a certain way. Or if there are certain characters in hip-hop. I'll use Eminem as an example for this: Eminem incorporates multiple personalities and aliases into his songs, you have Slim Shady and you have Marshall Mathers, two different attitudes presenting themselves differently but essentially the same person.

I also agree that region effects so much in this spectrum. It is interesting to see artists from the South reach above average - even surpassing Shakespeare of all people. Though it amounts to and depends on what education each artist had been exposed to and the amount of views, opinions and contributions that their surroundings had to offer.

Re: PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

WindowAbove — Mon, 5 May 2014 07:41:43 GMT

Author: WindowAbove

Posted: 05/05/2014 11:41

Good flow, lyrics, beats; good lyrics don't necessarily have to be diverse but it helps.

PoD (#1): Lyrical Diversity in Hip Hop

Anonymous — Mon, 5 May 2014 06:27:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/05/2014 10:27

Today's Point of Discussion comes from yours truly.

This is something that's been circling the internet recently, and I thought it would be a waste not to see what people think.

A recent website has published a ranking of Hip Hop artists that have the largest vocabulary. Aesop Rock, perhaps unsurprisingly, ranks at number one, and DMX sits at last place. Perhaps most interesting is the entire of Wu-Tang are groups towards the top of the ranking.

You can find it here:

http://rappers.mdaniels.com.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/

It's a fun list and article, but does it have any larger implications? Is lyrical diversity a major factor (or the main factor) in determining the quality of a Hip Hop artist? Are there any parts of this research that surprise you? Is the research reliable?

Let us know what you think.

Point of Discussion is designed to provide the forums with a steady and reliable chance to discuss ideas and thoughts on music related subjects. Point of Discussion Threads are published every Monday and Thursday. If you would like to submit a quote, question, article or theory that we can talk about next, send me a private message - all ideas are welcome.