Best Ever Albums

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Muslim-Bigfoot — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 17:00:01 GMT

Author: Muslim-Bigfoot

Posted: 09/09/2014 21:00

Happymeal wrote:

A red race and blue race for example that produced the same results would be looked upon as the same. I already made this point (though I do think I didn't make it clear enough) and you understood it as such so I'm not sure if I should be posting this particular statement, but I do think it's important to know I don't mean to say that race isn't important as it's a driving factor in so many events that you should never overlook it.

I know you wanna give it a rest but I have a point I wanna make. I think any kind of anthropologically, historically and socially aware perspective would see the bolded part as impossible by definition. Also this point is made more evident by this simple observation that no two human products are the same and any similarity should be accounted for by socio-historical analysis. I think what we call race (or in this case black or white music) is actually an amalgam of concepts and situations mingled into one. I mean obviously you wouldn't include an indie rock band comprised of young African-Americans from upper east side Manhattan into your idea of black music so there are many other class, social status and geographical conditions (and god knows what else) to the simple racial denominations, conditions which are not essentially included in it. What helps you and me to speak of black music I think is the relative distinctness and homogeneity of African-american populations in United States. Only with taking this contingent homogeneity and also rather more importantly socio-historical ancestry of the ideas involved in a brand of music (which in a quite contradictory way can bypass the mentioned homogeneity and constraints of social status in a way that is possible in any powerful tradition) into account is that we can understand what can play the role of a separator line between, in this case, black music and white music; in the end we know that although this separation is there, however maybe as more of a vanishing border in the case of techno, but is there not because of race essentially but things that customarily have come hand in hand with this or that distinct racial group; in the end one might ask what is race but things that customarily come hand in hand with it? Well it seems to be essentially something more than that in minds of people, but it would be better if it was not. It's true that in this case color of skin can play a definite role but in general it isn't helpful and its dominant role and it being a rather handy tool (for people that mind) in roughly distinguishing certain groups (African, Asian, Indian, Jewish, Middle-eastern) is mainly deceiving albeit still remaining a forceful element in grouping people in our uncivilized minds.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:09:29 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 20:09

Happymeal wrote:

I don't think music should be considered colorblind, but being colorblind might just be an intrinsic value of any idea. I think an easy comparison would be mathematics. Regardless of how we communicate it, the particular event (or thing in this case) still does what it's supposed to do. In the same vein, race is still synonymous with any event that encompasses race that much, but solely because we communicate it as such.

Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

Happymeal wrote:

I don't think that this particular discussion will go anywhere.

Agreed. Let's quit now.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Graeme2 — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:03:32 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 09/09/2014 20:03

Some good posts well put. Some nice points of view from skinny and I agree with some of it and not with others. Sorry to be pedantic but still have to insist on never ever saying that techno is a non black non American genre. Not at any point. I explicitly do not agree with that statement and do not want my name against it. Quoting me saying it came into existence from non black non American input is not the same. Never meant it to mean the same. Maybe like Parrish I'm not so good at explaining things. For the record I don't think it's an either black or white genre. My points were always about the foundations and the influences then. Yeah it's stupid saying the influences were 100 per cent white etc. obviously. Was just looking at it from when Alleys Of Your Mind came out, what the explicit influences were on that and the tracks at that time ,what they sounded like and it really just being a continuation of electronic music. Anyways as the music became more well, techno, the influences were just as much black as white. And all of this is just to highlight why I think, in my opinion, tha calling techno music a black music absurd and also therefore the Parrish comments. No more controversial posts from me for a while 😁

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 16:00:57 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/09/2014 20:00

Skinny wrote:

But whatever, I feel like I'm going round in circles here. To summarise: I think race is often, though not always, a major factor in an artist's work, and often a major factor in the birth and continued evolution of entire genres, and this should not be ignored or played down.

I'll preface this by correcting my last sentence with reason over race (instead of context because, yes, race is a portion of the context. I phrased that incorrectly). I'm in agreement with the idea "that the two are so intertwined as to be practically synonymous", but the race would be synonymous with any situation given. A red race and blue race for example that produced the same results would be looked upon as the same. I already made this point (though I do think I didn't make it clear enough) and you understood it as such so I'm not sure if I should be posting this particular statement, but I do think it's important to know I don't mean to say that race isn't important as it's a driving factor in so many events that you should never overlook it.

I do think that this is very circular logic however so I don't think that this particular discussion will go anywhere. I don't think music should be considered colorblind, but being colorblind might just be an intrinsic value of any idea. I think an easy comparison would be mathematics. Regardless of how we communicate it, the particular event (or thing in this case) still does what it's supposed to do. In the same vein, race is still synonymous with any event that encompasses race that much, but solely because we communicate it as such.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:42:22 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 19:42

Happymeal wrote:

Actually, I do possess a comment about this particular idea. I'm not quite sure if I'm in agreement or disagreement with the particular attitude, but we do have to remember that race is a very broad system. I'm not necessarily saying one can't use it to portray context, but by solely adding the race, it can become a highly inaccurate portrayal. For me, it's not so much the race of the person that adds the meaning, but the reason why the person (or people in most cases of music) created said music that adds more meaning. Saying "a white guy made rock" for ex. isn't all of a sudden going to give you new context to a Beatles' song, but stating why said person did might. So, I'd assume that means I'm on the "music should be colorblind" side of the argument, but it's not pertinent whether I am or not. I do think certain types of music should be and are considered synonymous with certain races, but what that race is, is highly irrelevant to the understanding of the music (in comparison to the context that the music was created in)

I largely agree with the first part of this, although in many cases surely the artist's race is inherent to "the context that the music was created in", no? But whatever, I wasn't trying to say that race was or is the defining factor in any genre, just that in some genres it is certainly one of them and shouldn't be brushed under the rug. I also completely disagree with the idea that what an artist's race is, particularly in genres where race is (or at least can be) a central theme, is irrelevant to the understanding of the music, although I understand the point you are trying to make (i.e. you, as in Happymeal, might argue that Public Enemy made the music they did because of the social environment in which they lived, which isn't necessarily defined by the colour of somebody's skin, and therefore their work shouldn't be held up as an example of "black music" but rather as a form of protest music (or whatever it is you'd call it) made by people who were angry due to social factors that could ostensibly affect people of any race, though I'd argue that in cases such as this one that the two are so intertwined as to be practically synonymous, hence I can't agree with your last sentence given that it's impossible to understand Public Enemy's music without having some understanding of racial politics and tensions within America; similarly, I'd argue that the race of the originators of Detroit techno was inherent to the social context in which they created their music, meaning I simply can't abide this idea of race as an irrelevance).

But whatever, I feel like I'm going round in circles here. To summarise: I think race is often, though not always, a major/defining factor in an artist's work, and often a major/defining factor in the birth and continued evolution of entire genres, and this should not be ignored or played down.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Anonymous — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:21:34 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/09/2014 19:21

Skinny wrote:

Going back to an earlier thread, I really hate all this "music should be colourblind" crap. Some musics are black musics, some are white musics, and these differences should be acknowledged and lauded, so long as we don't start excluding people on the basis of their race.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:11:59 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 19:11

AlexZangari wrote:

I agree with most of this. I'm not saying culture in music is something that should be ignored. If a genre was birthed by a particular culture, that's important to note. But as a genre grows, it shouldn't remain exclusive. The musician shouldn't need to fit the mould of the genre in question in order to be genuine. In fact a lot of genres owe their existence to people from a different background/experience trying their hand at a genre that traditionally was played by another group of people.

I hadn't seen the comments by Parrish (couldn't find them), I was just commenting on the discussion.

Yeah, I'm in agreement. I also largely agree with Parrish's comments, which you can read here if you're interested (and don't particularly mind grammatical errors). He's certainly heavy-handed in making his point, but it's a fair one in my opinion.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

AlexZangari — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:05:21 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 09/09/2014 19:05

Skinny wrote:

Disagree (to some extent, though I can't say that discouraging certain groups of people from enjoying or indulging in any type of music is ever a good thing). I think recognising and celebrating our differences is an important part of our cultural understanding, and something that can add an even more compelling context to the music we already enjoy. Knowing, for instance, that Dexy's Midnight Runners come from Irish backgrounds and lived in my hometown adds an extra-special element to their music, for me at least, even if it doesn't necessarily impact on how much I enjoy it. Similarly, knowing that techno music was borne out of boredom in industrial Detroit, made by black kids who wanted to escape the grey tower blocks that surrounded them by turning to outer space and a romanticised vision of Europe to get their kicks and to express themselves musically, really does help to give a clue as to the mindset of those making it, and thus a deeper understanding of the music itself, even (again) if it doesn't necessarily impact on how much I enjoy it. The fact that I would call house and techno, as we know them today, musics of black origin does not mean that I don't think white people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them or integrate themselves into them (I'm white, and these are genres I take massive enjoyment out of listening to at home on my own and out with friends at parties and in clubs). It just means that I'm willing to accept and celebrate our differences in order to gain a greater understanding and appreciation of where this fantastic expression came from. Going back to an earlier thread, I really hate all this "music should be colourblind" crap. Some musics are black musics, some are white musics, and these differences should be acknowledged and lauded, so long as we don't start excluding people on the basis of their race.

I agree with most of this. I'm not saying culture in music is something that should be ignored. If a genre was birthed by a particular culture, that's important to note. But as a genre grows, it shouldn't remain exclusive. The musician shouldn't need to fit the mould of the genre in question in order to be genuine. In fact a lot of genres owe their existence to people from a different background/experience trying their hand at a genre that traditionally was played by another group of people.

Genre genre genre. Christ. I put so many "genre"s in that paragraph you could call it London Calling.

Skinny wrote:

Also, just out of interest, if you weren't referring to Parrish's comments, what was your initial post referring to?

I hadn't seen the comments by Parrish (couldn't find them), I was just commenting on the discussion.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Norman Bates — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 15:05:18 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 09/09/2014 19:05

AlexZangari wrote:

I'm confused. How does telling someone they can't do something because they're not the right race equate to anything other than racism?

He doesn't use "race". You just did.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 14:08:44 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 18:08

AlexZangari wrote:

I'm just saying that it's ass-backward to think a genre of music is owned by the first race to explore it.

Agree.

AlexZangari wrote:

The last thing music needs is to be segregated.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

AlexZangari — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 13:34:26 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 09/09/2014 17:34

Skinny wrote:

I'm sorry, please point out where Parrish said this. I'll wait.

I never said anything about Theo Parrish or white people. I'm just saying that it's ass-backward to think a genre of music is owned by the first race to explore it. The last thing music needs is to be segregated.

But that's all I'll say on this because the last thing I need is to be the next guy burnt at the stake for this crap.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

paladisiac — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 12:41:29 GMT

Author: paladisiac

Posted: 09/09/2014 16:41

it's very easy to offend. it is much more difficult to inspire.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

revolver94 — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 11:23:40 GMT

Author: revolver94

Posted: 09/09/2014 15:23

i definitely don't want music that offends me and preferably music that doesn't offend other people, but the latter happens all the GoD DANG TImE!

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 11:16:10 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 15:16

AlexZangari wrote:

I'm confused. How does telling someone they can't do something because they're not the right race equate to anything other than racism?

I'm sorry, please point out where Parrish said this. I'll wait. His argument was against white artists using his (and other producers') sample sources to further their own careers, and he even points out that these comments are in no way aimed at all white artists.

Theo Parrish wrote:

There are a few non black underground dance artists that simply have gravitated to the form because its as free a musical form as you can get. They don’t even care who their music sounds like, they are just trying to express themselves honestly and truthfully. I’m not talking about them. They are rare and appreciated. They are original. Whatever success they garner is deserved.

Like I said, I don't think Parrish's comments were well-put, and I think he makes massive exaggerations in order to fit his agenda, but I don't see how any of what he said qualifies as "racism".

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

AlexZangari — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 10:58:57 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 09/09/2014 14:58

I'm confused. How does telling someone they can't do something because they're not the right race equate to anything other than racism?

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Norman Bates — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:00:05 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 09/09/2014 11:00

Graeme2 wrote:

To say white people are at a party they weren't invited to is incredible racism, ignorance and downright stupidity.

What. Ever. Are. You. Talking. About.

EDIT: sorry, late on the bandwagon, everything that needed to be said about this has been.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Skinny — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 06:13:03 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/09/2014 10:13

Skinny wrote:

To claim that techno is a "non black non American" genre - as you did, explicitly - in order to prove Parrish wrong is a false dichotomy.

Graeme2 wrote:

Sorry but you have misquoted me.

Graeme2 wrote:

techno music, one of the very few music forms to come into existence solely from non black non American input.

There's a huge difference between misunderstanding somebody's intentions and misquoting them. I think you'll find that I didn't misquote you.

Graeme2 wrote:

When I'm making my point and being a bit economical with the truth it's in response to that Parrish guy who is completely wrong.

Like I said, it's a false dichotomy. You don't have to be economical with the truth to prove Parrish wrong.

Anyway, this argument got a bit nastier than it really needed to. The fact remains that black people had a huge part in the evolution of techno, and are (in my mind) as responsible for its invention as any of the white European synth-fiddlers who pre-dated them. Whether that proves Parrish wrong or right is arguable, but I think he makes a very strong point, if not necessarily in the best way possible. Black music (as in, literally, music made by black artists) traditionally doesn't sell as well as white music, and yet in many of these cases the white artists selling these records are doing so on the back of black musical innovations. If I were a black man in America who, like Parrish, had been involved in helping to build a genre (in his case house, not techno) which had become massive, I'd be pretty fucking suspicious of white people coming along and selling more records than I could ever dream of whilst essentially using my template in order to do so. And so I struggle to agree with the point that he's "racist", even if I do think some of what he's saying is exaggerated and unnecessarily flagrant. However, the best way to deal with exaggerations and biased assessments is not to counter with even more ridiculous exaggerations and biased assessments that take the argument to the other extreme. The issue is not black and white (no pun intended). You can think Parrish is a prick for being so suspicious of white people whilst also acknowledging that some of what he says is quite correct. But whatever, regardless of what he says in interviews I'm still going to love his music.

Link

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

Anti — Tue, 9 Sep 2014 00:55:49 GMT

Author: Anti

Posted: 09/09/2014 04:55

Lightly touching on what people have said already, I like it when music isn't blatantly offensive, but it is offensive enough to deliver interesting points and possibly address a concern. Especially when it is a "game changer" or pushes explicit boundaries.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

benpaco — Mon, 8 Sep 2014 23:24:52 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 09/09/2014 03:24

Came back to see if anyone was defending Buyer's Market.

Aborting.

Re: How offensive do you want your music?

denmarkman — Mon, 8 Sep 2014 21:37:40 GMT

Author: denmarkman

Posted: 09/09/2014 01:37

Kiki wrote:

and denmark, we will have to give you more recs of albums which offend you 😉 This way you will start liking albums which offend you and then one day you will put up chart named 'My favorite albums which offend me' and people may find great reccos from it :)

🤣