Best Ever Albums

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:52:15 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/15/2014 13:52

Alright so to clarify my own opinions here:

1. It seems the main cause of confusion is that you're mainly discussing "interesting" vs. "boring" whereas my gripe was in considering charts "good" vs. "bad." This is where we have very different mindsets, i.e. while you do note a distinction between the two terms your general rule of thumb seems to be that boring doesn't make for a very good chart, whereas to me I find plenty of boring charts to be quite good so long as I dig the content.

2.

Skinny wrote:

They don't really offer me anything, and so there's no point just insulting somebody because I don't like their taste in music (/find it uninteresting). It's somebody's taste, after all, even if I find the way they choose to present it boring.

I feel strongly about this, which is why I got on manurock for the initial comment. To rate charts for me is extremely rare but when I do I can say I've only ever given positive scores save for a few "top 5 of all time" that are exclusively Radiohead. The other part as I said had to do with honesty, and to me looking at a chart full of albums you think are great and then saying it's a bad chart is dishonest, and I get that there's an argument against that but it's probably not worth discussing as perhaps neither side is right.

3. I feel like my comments have been misconstrued a lot where I'm made to look like I'm arguing against something that I would never argue against.

Quote:

I prefer charts with some unusual choices from which I can grab recommendations, given that the primary reason that I use a music site such as this is to get recommendations (and share them in return).

I've not said at all that I do not value these types of charts. As I've tried to explain, I like charts like this as they are useful/interesting, but not always because I'd define them as a good chart. Ultimately whether I like a chart in the end is decided by whether I like the albums on it. If I don't know the majority of the albums, I have no opinion on whether it's a good or bad chart until I've listened to it.

tl,dr: When I call a chart good or bad it's subjective and personal. For a good chart, I'm just saying that in my opinion I think it has great albums. Whether it's interesting or boring is besides the point, they're something else entirely to me.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 08:14:01 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/15/2014 12:14

AlexZangari wrote:

Does that make it a bad chart though?

EDIT: Follow-up question - do you think it's possible for there to be a genuinely good chart that's composed of popular picks?

I don't really see charts in terms of "good" or "bad" in that sense (although charts with six U2 albums, for example, edge dangerously close to the latter), but rather in terms of "interesting" or "boring". An interesting chart is a good chart; a boring chart is a bad one. Though, to be honest, I think those terms (good and bad, that is) are pretty crude when describing somebody's taste in music. So, in my opinion, a chart full of popular albums, even ones that I largely like, isn't a bad chart so much as it's a boring one. And I really don't have anything to say about boring charts.

As for the second question, of course it's possible to have a chart full of popular albums that's interesting (/good), but it would need to have some sort of unique slant on it, for me. Be that a chart that's massively varied (or, sometimes, a chart that's almost impossibly narrow in scope - if somebody had a top 100 made up almost entirely of a particular sub-genre, I'd find that interesting too), a chart that's ordered in an unpredictable way, or even just a chart with some personal, well-written, funny, insightful, or otherwise interesting notes. But a chart that just acts as a list of very popular albums is in no way interesting to me. It's OK though, I don't comment on those charts. They don't really offer me anything, and so there's no point just insulting somebody because I don't like their taste in music (/find it uninteresting). It's somebody's taste, after all, even if I find the way they choose to present it boring.

So, going back to this:

AlexZangari wrote:

My point was that "these are mostly great albums but they're very popular" is a horrible reason to give a chart such low marks.

I just don't agree with that opinion on any level, really (although I refrain from giving a numerical score to charts anyway, because it just seems like a strange thing to do, ranking somebody's music taste out of 100 - where I can, with charts I find interesting, I leave a comment).

Hope that helps.

(n.b. nothing I've written in this thread - aside from that which specifically refers to it - is about VanillaBean's (or anybody else's) chart.)

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 00:43:03 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/15/2014 04:43

Alright, it has become painfully obvious to me that both sides of this conversation are deeply confused about what the other side is arguing for.

For clarity, I'm going to ask one question:

Skinny wrote:

If a chart has no albums on it which I've never heard, it's automatically a less interesting chart to me, regardless of how good I might think the albums on it are.

Does that make it a bad chart though?

EDIT: Follow-up question - do you think it's possible for there to be a genuinely good chart that's composed of popular picks?

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 18:25:59 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/14/2014 22:25

AlexZangari wrote:

All I'm saying is that if these are this guy's favourite albums (and I assume they are), and they're a good selection (I personally think they are), then to me it is a good chart. I'm genuinely confused as to why that's supposedly a bad way of treating it.

This has been done to death, but clearly what you look for in a chart and what I look for in a chart differ greatly. I prefer charts with some unusual choices from which I can grab recommendations, given that the primary reason that I use a music site such as this is to get recommendations (and share them in return). If a chart has no albums on it which I've never heard, it's automatically a less interesting chart to me, regardless of how good I might think the albums on it are. That doesn't make it a bad chart by any means, but neither is it a great one (to me). It doesn't offer me anything I can take away and listen to.

AlexZangari wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like that way of thinking. It's basically implying you need to listen to X number of albums before your chart can be good.

I think you're stretching massively here. Nobody was "basically implying" that at all.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 18:21:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 10/14/2014 22:21

AlexZangari wrote:

Assuming you're right about all this, I still don't understand how it makes for a bad chart. So what if he hasn't dug deep and isn't really well-listened? Maybe it's just me, but I don't like that way of thinking. It's basically implying you need to listen to X number of albums before your chart can be good.

I never said it was a bad chart.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 18:14:20 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 22:14

All I'm saying is that if these are this guy's favourite albums (and I assume they are), and they're a good selection (I personally think they are), then to me it is a good chart. I'm genuinely confused as to why that's supposedly a bad way of treating it.

sp4cetiger wrote:

The best I could think to do with this person is encourage them to dig deeper. As manurock said, it looks like a concatenation of year-end lists from major publications. I enjoy a lot of these albums, but it seems unlikely to me that a really well-listened person would converge on the median tastes of the critical establishment.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:49:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 10/14/2014 21:49

Commenting on charts is a damn put-on, I don't know how to do it. If I comment on whether I like the albums, it's pointless. I mean, who cares, really? I can tell the user that the chart is useful (or useless) to me for recs, but that's shit encouragement because it wouldn't make sense to make a chart for other people... I mean, the best charts are individual expressions.

The best I could think to do with this person is encourage them to dig deeper. As manurock said, it looks like a concatenation of year-end lists from major publications. I enjoy a lot of these albums, but it seems unlikely to me that a really well-listened person would converge on the median tastes of the critical establishment.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:49:16 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/14/2014 21:49

HoldenM wrote:

Some people value variety. Some value uniqueness. Some value familiarity. More often than not, it's a mix of all of that. There's no real wrong way to rate a chart, just like there's no real wrong way of making a chart.

Agreed. I guess my issue stems from the fact that I didn't think manurock's criticism was unfair, whilst I did think that digging it up, posting it here, and then labelling it "obnoxious" was. But you're right, everyone has their own criteria for what makes a good chart, and mine and Alex's clearly just don't align.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

HoldenM — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:43:01 GMT

Author: HoldenM

Posted: 10/14/2014 21:43

Skinny wrote:

I just think that "albums I like = good chart; albums I dislike = bad chart" is a really black and white way of looking at things.

I could be missing some information, but that seems like a false dichotomy. Has Alex Zangari said that he rates charts unfavorably if he doesn't like the albums on it? If so, then yeah. It is sort of silly to rate things with such an absolutist attitude. Otherwise, if they rate charts highly because they agree with the entries displayed on that chart, that's not a bad philosophy. It is, after all, nice to find people who have common interests and preferences. So, if that means giving a good rating to a chart, then so what? Like it always comes back to here, it's all subjective. As boring and as much of a copout as that is, that's just the way things are. Some people value variety. Some value uniqueness. Some value familiarity. More often than not, it's a mix of all of that. There's no real wrong way to rate a chart, just like there's no real wrong way of making a chart.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 16:33:42 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/14/2014 20:33

AlexZangari wrote:

If I like the albums on a chart then I think it's a good chart. Was not aware that was so taboo. Thought it rather obvious, frankly.

I just think that "albums I like = good chart; albums I dislike = bad chart" is a really black and white way of looking at things.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:59:34 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 19:59

HoldenM wrote:

...Well, popular albums, boring choices. Even if this were necessarily true, who cares? They're amazing and popular for a reason. As long as you love these, that's all that matters.

Great chart.

Thank you 🙏

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:57:54 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 19:57

How the hell is that sad? If someone made a chart that had a ton of your favourites from our top 500 on it, would you say "I don't like this chart because it's predictable?" That would be sad. A good chart is one that has good music, whether it be good obscure music or good popular music.

Do I not value a chart that has good recs for me? I'm not sure what this question means. What kind of chart are we talking about? A chart that is purely made up of albums I've never heard? Well I would need to start listening before I can decide how I'd value that chart. Or maybe a chart that has some albums I've heard and some I haven't? Well I would judge that by the ones I've heard. If I like the chart based on what I've heard, then it probably has great recs. So I value a chart based on what I've heard from it, which seems entirely rational to me. I do not value a chart based on how many recs I can get from it. I don't understand how you could value a chart based on that. Once you've listened to all the recs, what do you value it by then?

If I like the albums on a chart then I think it's a good chart. Was not aware that was so taboo. Thought it rather obvious, frankly.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

HoldenM — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:52:54 GMT

Author: HoldenM

Posted: 10/14/2014 19:52

...Well, popular albums, boring choices. Even if this were necessarily true, who cares? They're amazing and popular for a reason. As long as you love these, that's all that matters.

Great chart.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Norman Bates — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 15:19:41 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 10/14/2014 19:19

AlexZangari wrote:

If I like the albums on a chart, I like the chart. I don't care how unique it is

Man, this is not honest. Or if it is, it's sad. Do you really not value a chart that has good recs for you? Is really a good chart a chart you like the albums off of?

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 14:23:36 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 10/14/2014 18:23

The chart has Mogwai which is good 😄

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:05:55 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 17:05

Skinny wrote:

I also don't think that criticising a chart because it contains lots of predictable choices is any worse than criticising a chart because it contains too many albums from one particular era.

I wasn't criticizing that. Personally, I really dig the 90s and 00s. My favourites have a disproportionate lean toward those eras. It's totally possible for someone to make a chart which is half from one of those decades and I'd like it. But the 2010s isn't one of my favourites. Just like I said, "I'm not big enough a fan of this decade though to have a quarter of my chart be from the 2010s when we're only half way through them." I'm not criticizing the chart for not having a diverse enough age range, I'm just saying I don't share the love for this decade.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:55:18 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/14/2014 16:55

AlexZangari wrote:

What, are you trying to accuse me of some kind of hypocrisy? There's a big difference between dismissing an entire chart because it contains popular albums which you admit are "mostly great" and enjoying a chart yet still noting how it contains a decent chunk of albums you don't particularly like from a decade you find personally underwhelming.

I just don't think the comment was particularly "obnoxious". manurock was being polite, and even emphasised that it's just his opinion. I also don't think that criticising a chart because it contains lots of predictable choices is any worse than criticising a chart because it contains too many albums from one particular era. I also just hate people using the term "hipster" as though it means anything.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:26:19 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 16:26

Skinny wrote:

You managed to call one user "obnoxious" for having the temerity to say - quite politely - that this chart featured a few too many predictable choices for his/her liking, whilst at the same time criticising the same chart for containing too many recent albums for your liking. Just rubbed me up the wrong way.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

Skinny — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:55:37 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 10/14/2014 15:55

AlexZangari wrote:

They're certainly not exclusive. However, I'm not going to dislike a chart simply for not being unique enough. If someone's favourite records all happen to fall in our top 500, I'm not going to judge them for it and they shouldn't feel a need to like more unique albums. They should just be honest about what they like.

Cool. Should people not be honest about whether they find something they've just taken the time to read interesting or useful? Or is it simply a case of "people should be honest about what they like (so long as it fits in with my worldview)"?

Look, I don't really care. I think the appearance of a large amount of familiar albums in a chart is a bit boring, but I don't rate charts. I will occasionally leave a considered comment on a chart, and if I pick a fault I always try to counteract that with a positive. I don't comment on charts that I find boring, because they're boring to me. I don't actually think VanillaBean's chart is particularly cookie-cutter, although it could probably go a little easier on the Pitchfork-approved stuff. The big thing - for me, anyway - is that this chart has no scope for offering me recommendations (and, since getting recommendations is my main reason for being here, this chart doesn't really appeal to me). On the plus side, there's a nice amount of variety here, and some albums I love. I have nothing against this chart.

I just think calling people "hipsters" for not wanting to see charts full of already-acclaimed albums (that many of us have probably already heard) is lazy, meaningless, and smells a little of sour grapes. You managed to call one user "obnoxious" for having the temerity to say - quite politely - that this chart featured a few too many predictable choices for his/her liking, whilst at the same time criticising the same chart for containing too many recent albums for your liking. Just rubbed me up the wrong way.

Re: Chart of the day (#1092): By VanillaBean

AlexZangari — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:40:46 GMT

Author: AlexZangari

Posted: 10/14/2014 15:40

Skinny wrote:

Wow, how boring. If I surrounded myself with people who like all the same things I do, life would be very bland indeed.

Because obviously my life must equate to this just because I enjoy a chart that has mostly popular picks.

Skinny wrote:

I don't think "honesty" and "uniqueness" are mutually exclusive. For me, the best charts have both in abundance.