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Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Temporary33 — Tue, 2 Feb 2016 04:03:01 GMT

Author: Temporary33

Posted: 02/02/2016 09:03

Lol

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

HigherThanTheSun — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 10:28:15 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 03/04/2015 15:28

Surely we know each other well enough by now to not be suspicious that people are motivated by racism here consciously or subconsciously

If hip hop has been unfairly targeted it's because misogyny in hip hop is much less subtle, it's very easy to find nwa quotes that are categorically sexist while even blurred lines is partly up for interpretation

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:56:18 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:56

sp4cetiger wrote:

I think it's important that we make this distinction: music can't be misogynistic, only people can be misogynistic. Music is incapable of feeling or expressing, all of that goes on in the artist and listener. So we can pick apart a piece of music and try to decide if the artist was a misogynist, but even if we decide that they are, it doesn't necessarily imply that the public consumed it in that way. And the inverse is true, too. Just because an artist had no misogynistic intentions, that doesn't mean that the message received by most of the public will be completely innocent.

For example, when Sting wrote "Every Breath You Take", he was writing (critically) about stalking. However, judging from how often it's played at proms and on easy listening radio, I'm guessing most of the public didn't interpret it that way. Is his "true" message still subtly influencing people, causing them to view stalking in a more or less favorable light? I think that would be a stretch. However, I would say that the widespread misinterpretation of the song speaks to the misogynistic tendencies of American culture. "Oh can't you see, you belong to me..."

Kind of like when the Reagan-ites played "Born in the USA" at their rallies, thinking it was just a nice flag-waving patriotic anthem when it really was a critical study of both the overall social and literal effects of the Vietnam War on america- and the eventuall disregard for the poor and disenfranchised, who were drafted by the rich and powerful, when they came back in a time of declining wartime popularity and often in need of critical care that few seemed willing to give. But because it had a nice, sparkly production (it originally was intended to be a rawer acoustic-based release), most people just disregarded the non "BORN IN THE USAAAA" lyrics and thought it was just a nice straight-faced Glory of America anthem (and I remember when we had a controversial post in an old thread (wish I could remember which one) that gave an in-BEA example of a major interpretation of Bruce's lyrics). That mis-interpretation ended up speaking more to our smiley-face, glorification-heavy, disconnected-from-reality culture that any one song probably ever could.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:53:41 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:53

RockyRaccoon wrote:

In my experience, the misinterpretation comes from a few things: 1. Sting has a pretty voice, 2. The song is slow, 3. People don't listen closely to the lyrics. All of these come together and people think it's a love song or something because they here "Every breath you take" and "you belong to me" and they go "oh it's a love song" without thinking too hard about it. I do think the way the song is presented musically affects that though. If that song was sung by, say, someone with Alice Cooper's voice and inflection as opposed to Sting's soft, pretty soprano, it would sound immeasurably creepier and that misinterpretation might not have happened. That's just a guess though.

My guess is that the misinterpretation also wouldn't have happened if it had been sung by a woman. 😜

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

RockyRaccoon — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:45:26 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:45

sp4cetiger wrote:

I would say that's definitely an important distinction to make. Music is one of the few things that exists that is presented in a pure form. The only meaning music in and of itself has is the context it is given by either the creator or the listener (or both).

Quote:

For example, when Sting wrote "Every Breath You Take", he was writing (critically) about stalking. However, judging from how often it's played at proms and on easy listening radio, I'm guessing most of the public didn't interpret it that way. Is his "true" message still subtly influencing people, causing them to view stalking in a more or less favorable light? I think that would be a stretch. However, I would say that the widespread misinterpretation of the song speaks to the misogynistic tendencies of American culture. "Oh can't you see, you belong to me..."

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:45:10 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:45

Applerill wrote:

I dunno, I think I'm gonna keep putting the blame on Brad Paisley. I think criticizing pop stars for being misogynistic is misogynistic in itself. Slut-shaming is not cool, guys.

Also, if you guys really want pop music to be without misogyny, then you should love

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Bangerz by Miley Cyrus
Since it allowed Miley to talk about sex completely free of the male gaze.

Apple you amaze me sometimes

But no I think the problem was that it felt like Hip-Hop was being targeted above all others when this thread was started, which kind of brought up uncomfortable cultural dissonance/racial implications, cuz just to take a wild guess a majority of us in this thread are white males, and going specifically after a genre right away where a majority of the artists (at least in the english-speaking world) are African-American does kind of bring up those racial sentiments. Just like bringing up the issue of misogyny in songs sung by female vocalists may bring up a similiar disconnect, as while some may argue that these specific songs are sexist and contributing to a woman-being-controlled-by-men fantasy, others decry speaking out against it as slut-shaming and not allowing a woman to be herself and be sexy if she wants to be. Just like the two-sided coin in that while some may call a hip-hop song misogynistic, others will argue that it was not in itself intended to promote this patriarchal worldview but only portraying the real-world misogyny that's rife in the song's universe.

Yes, it can be a problem in hip-hop, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't... but while a line like "treat her like a prostitute" sung by a man may sound worse than a line like "bang bang into my room, Ill let you have it" sung by a woman, that doesn't mean there isn't an equally misogynistic/women's-sexuality-is-there-for-the-taking slant to both of the lyrics that equally contributes to the wider social problem that can be reflected, but is not grown, in songs like these. And remember- all song lyrics, no matter how blunt they may seem, are subjective, and the interpretation over both the song's meaning and how it may promote a certain idea or how extreme it may be in tone, is purely up to the listener.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Graeme2 — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:29:13 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:29

Norman Bates wrote:

lol, as if it hadn't been in the whole thread all the time.

😄 Maybe the choice of word was wrong there. Kinda funny but the point was serious. Should have said racism instead of racial.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:10:32 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 14:10

I think it's important that we make this distinction: music can't be misogynistic, only people can be misogynistic. Music is incapable of feeling or expressing, all of that goes on in the artist and listener. So we can pick apart a piece of music and try to decide if the artist was a misogynist, but even if we decide that they are, it doesn't necessarily imply that the public consumed it in that way. And the inverse is true, too. Just because an artist had no misogynistic intentions, that doesn't mean that the message received by most of the public will be completely innocent.

For example, when Sting wrote "Every Breath You Take", he was writing (critically) about stalking. However, judging from how often it's played at proms and on easy listening radio, I'm guessing most of the public didn't interpret it that way. Is his "true" message still subtly influencing people, causing them to view stalking in a more or less favorable light? I think that would be a stretch. However, I would say that the widespread misinterpretation of the song speaks to the misogynistic tendencies of American culture. "Oh can't you see, you belong to me..."

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

RockyRaccoon — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 08:49:16 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 03/04/2015 13:49

HigherThanTheSun wrote:

I don't know how it can be argued that all types of music are equally responsible for it though and acting like it isn't, if not a particular, at least an exaggerated problem in hip hop just seems like head in the sand to me

Agreed. It almost seems that this conversation is becoming "Well hey, it happens in [insert genre here] too!" which seems to be implying that that makes it ok that it's in hip-hop?

Sure, we shouldn't just single out hip-hop as if it's this evil genre of music that hates women while all other forms of music are so kind to them (they're not), but without a doubt it is something that is very prevalent in hip-hop, or perhaps more specifically, gangsta rap. I feel like using hip-hop as a whole is like saying "in rock music", it's too general. Is misogyny an issue in blues? Sure. Is it an issue in hair metal? Unequivocally. Is it an issue in hip-hop? Without a doubt.

The question isn't "does misogyny exist in music", it absolutely does, the question really should be "why does it exist and what should be done to remedy that?" We're spending more time arguing about whether or not the wind is blowing rather than why the wind is blowing.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Applerill — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 08:47:30 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 03/04/2015 13:47

I dunno, I think I'm gonna keep putting the blame on Brad Paisley. I think criticizing pop stars for being misogynistic is misogynistic in itself. Slut-shaming is not cool, guys.

Also, if you guys really want pop music to be without misogyny, then you should love

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Bangerz by Miley Cyrus
Since it allowed Miley to talk about sex completely free of the male gaze.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

HigherThanTheSun — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 08:36:23 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 03/04/2015 13:36

Saoirse wrote:

Mysogny is prevelant across all genres, and there are a good number of female singers/pop stars who often sing written-by-committee misogynistic songs that suggest their sexuality is for the taking, just like some male singers (yes, not just hip hop emcees but also good country boys too) are oft to do. It's a far-reaching problem and trying to single out one genre as the root of all evil does no favors. People like to single out hip-hop, has anybody heard some of these country hits? It often suggests, "patriotically" of course, that women are nothing more than walking bras. It's much more of a across-all-spectrums cultural and social problem than a specific music/industry problem.

I'd say pop music sung by males or females is probably the worst culprit of all and while I'm thankfully protected in day to day life from country music I'll take your word that it can be awful for it too.

I don't know how it can be argued that all types of music are equally responsible for it though and acting like it isn't, if not a particular, at least an exaggerated problem in hip hop just seems like head in the sand to me

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Norman Bates — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 07:27:22 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 03/04/2015 12:27

Graeme2 wrote:

I was waiting for the racial issue to pop into this.

lol, as if it hadn't been in the whole thread all the time.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Norman Bates — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 07:26:54 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 03/04/2015 12:26

Graeme2 wrote:

What do think is the answer to this most important question?

I shoudln't know, or I could give what I think a probable answer, but I'm biased too, probably as biased as people researching precisely "mysogyny in hip-hop" for whatever reason.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Graeme2 — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 07:11:01 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 03/04/2015 12:11

Saoirse wrote:

They can say it's "mostly" in hip-hop, but that's bullshit. It's everywhere across the music spectrum in high frequency. Yes, as Skinny put it, hip-hop lyrics tend to be more direct and forceful, especially about social and cultural issues, so there's less guise to perhaps the misogynistic happenings or even the artist's own intentions in some of the hip-hop songs out there. But that's not saying that when it's frequently hidden in either a female voice or a good-time ol' country-boy anthem that those song's misogyny is any less prevelant- the latter just tend to veil (and perhaps deny and play coy about) it a lot more.

Singling out one scapegoat to try and make an example of the subject and without facts backing it up saying it's the biggest offender does nothing to get to the root of the issue, and for many it's more than a bit culturally and racially offensive to automatically, as many pundits have done in the past, attack hip-hop as the biggest cause of a particular social problem. Now Im not trying to stir up flame bait and fire up a racially-charged discussion here, but I wanna just get it out there that misogyny can be wrapped up in a seemingly harmless package or even, as a lot of producers and industry songwriters are seeming to do these days, have women themselves often sing and promote blatantly misogynistic songs, and it's every bit as bad and every bit as rife in the music (and real, outside) world as when it's spoken through a less-coy, more direct medium.

I was waiting for the racial issue to pop into this. Mostly agree with everything you say. But when you start casually mentioning things like that it is highly offensive withoutany facts to back that up. I dnt want to get into that either but be careful about just dropping that in there because that's bollocks.
How could you measure in an accurate way the misogynist content of all music released, by genre, and compare? Yes impossible. You could subjectively measure the biggest selling artists in each genre and compare but hey, i cant be arsed with that and I'm bored now as I'm sure is everyone.
Good this discussion is here as its an important one and one I'm very interested in as I've been a hip hop fan since around the time of raising hell and i'll just shut up now.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 06:05:44 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 11:05

They can say it's "mostly" in hip-hop, but that's bullshit. It's everywhere across the music spectrum in high frequency. Yes, as Skinny put it, hip-hop lyrics tend to be more direct and forceful, especially about social and cultural issues, so there's less guise to perhaps the misogynistic happenings or even the artist's own intentions in some of the hip-hop songs out there. But that's not saying that when it's frequently hidden in either a female voice or a good-time ol' country-boy anthem that those song's misogyny is any less prevelant- the latter just tend to veil (and perhaps deny and play coy about) it a lot more.

Singling out one scapegoat to try and make an example of the subject and without facts backing it up saying it's the biggest offender does nothing to get to the root of the issue, and for many it's more than a bit culturally and racially offensive to automatically, as many pundits have done in the past, attack hip-hop as the biggest cause of a particular social problem. Now Im not trying to stir up flame bait and fire up a racially-charged discussion here, but I wanna just get it out there that misogyny can be wrapped up in a seemingly harmless package or even, as a lot of producers and industry songwriters are seeming to do these days, have women themselves often sing and promote blatantly misogynistic songs, and it's every bit as bad and every bit as rife in the music (and real, outside) world as when it's spoken through a less-coy, more direct medium.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Graeme2 — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 05:41:35 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 03/04/2015 10:41

Saoirse wrote:

Everybody knows this though. And you are the first person to say root of all evil regarding hip hop. The thread has been mainly about music lyrics. Apart from what I or anyone else on here thinks, it appears that the general consensus online and from my peers is that it is more predominant in hip hop lyrics than other genres. If you want to widen the topic, I do think misogyny is an area that is probably getting worse in society and the main worry I have is that this is probably down to the highly misogynist hardcore porn widely available online and the soft core porn used to sell pop music. These I'm sure are more of a threat to shaping young people's attitudes to women.

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Graeme2 — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 05:21:23 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 03/04/2015 10:21

Norman Bates wrote:

Actually, I think so, yes. I also think it's the most important question in the whole debate tbh.

What do think is the answer to this most important question?

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Anonymous — Wed, 4 Mar 2015 04:27:22 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/04/2015 09:27

Mysogny is prevelant across all genres, and there are a good number of female singers/pop stars who often sing written-by-committee misogynistic songs that suggest their sexuality is for the taking, just like some male singers (yes, not just hip hop emcees but also good country boys too) are oft to do. It's a far-reaching problem and trying to single out one genre as the root of all evil does no favors. People like to single out hip-hop, has anybody heard some of these country hits? It often suggests, "patriotically" of course, that women are nothing more than walking bras. It's much more of a across-all-spectrums cultural and social problem than a specific music/industry problem.[/url]

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

Skinny — Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:44:46 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 03/03/2015 22:44

babyBlueSedan wrote:

I don't want to get into an argument over what is and isn't misogynistic, as it's something that's at least moderately subjective. But "I like my bitches mixed breeds" or much of "Shame" could be construed as such when taken out of context or if you're being fairly loose with the term. Kendrick is harder because it's more the way Sherane is used as a storytelling device that makes it problematic, although looking back that was a bad example. Weezer I completely agree isn't.

lol

Re: Point of Discussion: Misogyny in Music

babyBlueSedan — Tue, 3 Mar 2015 16:18:38 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 03/03/2015 21:18

WindowAbove wrote:

I think that a lot of people misuse the term misogyny and I would like to see some specific examples of lyrics that people think are misogynistic. The Lamar, Gibbs, and Weezer stuff isn't really, while the Dre and Snoop examples are.