Best Ever Albums

Re: EPs

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:17:59 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/15/2015 03:17

secretdad wrote:

That seems fair to me. Sorry I can get a bit passionate in my nerdiness over data, it's what I do for work and so I can get maybe a bit overzealous about it. But I really do think that allowing the non-albums to be entered in and properly categorized for the purpose of excluding them from all main charts would help put more focus on albums as the primary currency here. But I guess it turns out that the rules are even more relaxed than I thought so the problem I thought I had was moot and I'll be getting back to building up the database. Thanks!

Glad you're not leaving us!

I don't feel too strongly about the current rule, though I wouldn't mind seeing the length limit dropped to 15 min.

Re: EPs

Tap — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 14:32:45 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/13/2015 18:32

That seems fair to me. Sorry I can get a bit passionate in my nerdiness over data, it's what I do for work and so I can get maybe a bit overzealous about it. But I really do think that allowing the non-albums to be entered in and properly categorized for the purpose of excluding them from all main charts would help put more focus on albums as the primary currency here. But I guess it turns out that the rules are even more relaxed than I thought so the problem I thought I had was moot and I'll be getting back to building up the database. Thanks!

Re: EPs

albummaster — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:47:01 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/13/2015 17:47

secretdad wrote:

But I can add an EP now. It can even have EP in the title. It just has to be longer than 20 minutes (or have 5 tracks? I'm not sure I understand that part).

All albums here need to be at least 20 minutes long, or contain at least 5 tracks. Repeating myself from other threads but this is in line with the UK Albums Chart 'official' definition of an album: "a recording counts as an "album" if it either has more than four tracks or lasts more than 25 minutes" (this limit was lowered for BEA a few years back as a concession to allow some shorter length items to appear). So, the reason for the limit on tracks which Hayden has queried is to ensure BEA is in line with the official definition of an album.

secretdad wrote:

I feel like the emphasis on albums would be strengthened if these releases could be and labeled as Single/EP, and then disallowed from the main charts but allowed in customs (and for any reputable publication who influences the rankings and who's made a list where they included a release under 20 minutes, the list can be represented accurately and the EP could simply register no points for the release, like they do once they've been flagged for deletion).

I think that's a workable idea and definitely that could work, but the whole issue for me about EPs is not so much how they might appear on BEA, but whether they should appear on BEA as they don't fit neatly into the site concept, but I'm not ruling out doing this at some stage as the site has moved in new directions in the past & needs to be adaptive to change.

However, it's a struggle keeping up with all of the changes that are necessary, so people need to bear with me while I work through them. The current pipeline of work includes a site redesign which is already in progress, but is proving a big job. After that, genre tagging will be implemented which is already a few years overdue(!) and I'm really wanting to implement this during 2015. I'll definitely revisit the whole issue of EPs once these two big improvements have been made as I know a lot of people want this but the redesign and genre tagging will add a huge amount of value to everybody & should be worth waiting for, and are the main priority right now.

Re: EPs

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:43:18 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/13/2015 16:43

Pretty much with Secretdad and Hayden sentiment-wise here as always, but yeah the argument has become pretty redundant at this point. I don't think it'd be that hard to allow EPs and stop at singles, and I think most of the time the line between them is pretty clear. Plus there are so many notable EP releases, but it is what it is.

Re: EPs

Hayden — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 10:55:51 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 03/13/2015 14:55

I've given up on this argument because everything I'm saying has either already been said, or is just plain redundant.

I do think EP's should be allowed on this website for a few reasons, but whatever.

The only thing that I think might be reasonable to change at this point is the criteria to what EP's are allowed on the site. Currently, it's either 20+ minutes, or 4+ tracks (5+? I forget), which is just silly. An EP can be 25 minutes and 2 tracks, and an EP can be 10 minutes and 10 tracks. The two don't really equate very well. I think we should get rid of the track standard... I can live with 20+ minutes, although I would prefer 15+ minutes considering the average mainstream EP is 16 minutes.

The track thing doesn't make too much sense... Tracks on some electronic EP's are simply concepts on when to break up a larger track, and sometimes don't exist whatsoever. 1 track EP's aren't too hard to come by. Hell, 1 track albums aren't too hard to come by either.

Re: EPs

Tap — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 04:13:07 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/13/2015 08:13

But I can add an EP now. It can even have EP in the title. It just has to be longer than 20 minutes (or have 5 tracks? I'm not sure I understand that part). I feel like the emphasis on albums would be strengthened if these releases could be and labeled as Single/EP, and then disallowed from the main charts but allowed in customs (and for any reputable publication who influences the rankings and who's made a list where they included a release under 20 minutes, the list can be represented accurately and the EP could simply register no points for the release, like they do once they've been flagged for deletion).

Like yeah if this was a lower priority than a huge redesign undertaking and getting genre tags set up, I don't even disagree with that. But I very strongly think the brand of the site is undercut way more with the current policy than if EP's were properly identified and excluded from ranking.

And just so I'm not just saying stuff with no practical implementation ideas, here's how I think this is possible. We can label albums as compilations. We would need to also label a release as Single/EP. Now it doesn't seem like that attribute has much impact beyond Compilation appearing on the release. We would need a bit more for this. But the attribute qualities exist. When inputting an album on a year or decade chart, albums outside of that year or decade are greyed out and cannot be put in. The EP attribute would need to trigger that for any ranked chart. And then it would also have to have the attributes of an entity flagged for deletion, where it contributes no points and creates an alert that it needs to be removed from the chart, but only on ranked charts. But I think that's it? That's still some work so I'm definitely not saying "you must do this now!" but I really do think it's possible.

Re: EPs

albummaster — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 03:46:26 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/13/2015 07:46

The reason there is a 20 minute/4 track threshold is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere between albums (what this site is all about) and other types of release. If the threshold was lowered, this would cease to become an album site and open the floodgates to any type of release which would then render most of the charts on the site useless and mean rebuilding the whole site just to allow a few shorter length items to appear. I know there are people that would like to see shorter length EPs on the site, but BEA's differentiating factor is that is an album site, the whole site concept is built around this.

In the future, once the site redesign is finished and genre tagging is added then perhaps the whole thing can be re-looked at to find a way for EPs to co-exist (in a similar way to how secretdad suggested). I'm just a bit worried that if the bar is lowered, the debate then switches to singles being allowed which would move BEA far away from the original site concept and BEA would then just become a clone of other sites that already exist.

Re: EPs

Tap — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:35:07 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/13/2015 03:35

is it at all possible that maybe the EP's could just be flagged on entry and not count for overall stuff but still be allowed on personal lists? The RYM interface is so terrible and I don't want to have to move to there and rebuild everything just to have an accurate account of the music releases that were important to me for the year. and I do like contributing to this database but I don't see any point in that if I can't keep track of what I need to keep track of. I mean I understand it's your site and your call on this, but I really think what makes this site stand out from anything similar is that it has the single most usable interface, far and away. But if the restrictions mean I can't use it for what I want to do then I gotta put my energy into something where I can.

And I mean the current system arbitrarily allows some ep's and disallows others, and I think that leads to less accuracy if everything permitted is allowed. Like there's some 19 minute releases on here that people hope to sneak by. And I could add the new Ekoplekz 12" because it has one track that is 12 minutes and one that's 15. But it absolutely is something that should be classified under Singles & EPs. And I dunno maybe it's just early but that b-side really feels like 15 minutes of not much going on (A side is really good though), and other 12"'s from Powell and Consumer Electronics that came out seem way more essential to me, but those are just around 15 minutes. But that's still more than the 12 minutes that I really value on the Ekoplekz one. So it all just feels weirdly arbitrary, when it doesn't need to be and things could just be classified as singles & ep's and the ones that are in the database could be properly categorized and the ones that are excluded can be used by people in lists. That really seems like it would give a better user experience and improve database accuracy.

Re: EPs

albummaster — Fri, 7 Nov 2014 03:09:28 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/07/2014 08:09

It has been discussed loads of times before. This is an album site and this is the key point of difference to other sites out there. The official definition of an album is it should be 25 minutes or contain at least 5 tracks (not my own definition, but an independent one). The limit was lowered to 20 minutes, in discussion with other members on this forum, as a concession to allow some shorter length albums onto the site.

Re: EPs

benpaco — Fri, 7 Nov 2014 01:03:32 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 11/07/2014 06:03

craola wrote:

It is what it is, and I'm not going to get worked up about it, but the site allows compilation albums, long single track albums and multi-disc albums (disintegration loops), so I don't see the big deal in allowing EPs.
My apologies for that unruly sentence.
There are plenty of EPs I'd chart over any compilation album.

That's my two cents.

*Edit: I say all of this with no intended disrespect for AM. I appreciate this website a lot (EPs or no), and I respect his decision on the matter.

Came here to say basically this, frankly. He put it better than I would've.

Re: EPs

Romanelli — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:58:36 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:58

SuedeSwede wrote:

Actually it was the fact you decided to ignore a post where I was being civil and trying to convey my point without being arsey about it. I started it in the wrong manner, and again, I apologise for that. I'm not feeling too great at the moment so excuse my words. But the fact you just ignored my whole post when you are supposed to, you know, comply with users, is just unfair.

I can accept that. My apologies for being abrupt with you.

Re: EPs

SuedeSwede — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:52:36 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:52

Romanelli wrote:

Your complaint is basically that you don't like the fact that I dismissed your comments because you were being a smartass.

Again...maybe try being nicer when you say something. You probably won't get as many responses that you don't like.

I initially commented on your OP as a user. As a moderator, I have no say in what rules are implemented. As a site user, I think this is beating a dead horse. Sorry you don't like my opinion on the matter.

Re: EPs

craola — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:48:13 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:48

It is what it is, and I'm not going to get worked up about it, but the site allows compilation albums, long single track albums and multi-disc albums (disintegration loops), so I don't see the big deal in allowing EPs.
My apologies for that unruly sentence.
There are plenty of EPs I'd chart over any compilation album.

That's my two cents.

*Edit: I say all of this with no intended disrespect for AM. I appreciate this website a lot (EPs or no), and I respect his decision on the matter.

Re: EPs

Skinny — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:48:11 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:48

Romanelli wrote:

Nothing was taken out of context. What you said was "Fuck the new points system". To AM. Started and ended the sentence with it. Started your point with it.

And then expanded on said point over the course of two posts, most all of which was worded civilly and reasonably, including a dig at myself for being so self-centred.

There's just no need to bring me into this argument whatsoever. albummaster knows from my conversations with him (largely from my previous account, granted) that I massively value the work that he (and everybody else who helps) puts into this site, and I've stated multiple times that when the option to donate arises I'll be the first in line.

Just don't bring up shit I've said out of context, in arguments I'm not involved in. Peace.

Re: EPs

Romanelli — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:40:31 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:40

SuedeSwede wrote:

I don't even care that much about this rule to argue about it any more. I tried being civil. I apologised for the profanity, and tried to cut the crap and just basically say what I thought. But because of the usage of two words put together at the start of the sentence, my opinion was denied by a moderator. In fact, I'm not even bothered about this EP thing anymore. More bothered by the fact a moderator in the suggestions forum - whose role in this case is to look over suggestions - completely ignored what I was saying.

Re: EPs

Romanelli — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:34:27 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:34

Nothing was taken out of context. What you said was "Fuck the new points system". To AM. Started and ended the sentence with it. Started your point with it.

My point is that AM deserves better than that from the people he works tirelessly for here at BEA. My point is that maybe people could try to show a little more respect for the person who makes all of this possible for you. I'm sorry you don't like having what you said being used as an example of lack of respect. Maybe next time...find a different way of saying it?

And maybe, just MAYBE...every single post on BEA doesn't need to be a display of how many ways we can work the word into conversation.

Re: EPs

SuedeSwede — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:26:50 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:26

Skinny wrote:

Also, apropos of fuck all, I largely agree with the site's stance on EPs.

Re: EPs

Skinny — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:19:42 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:19

Romanelli wrote:

Telling users to go f*** themselves is not acceptable. Do you not agree with that?

Read the site rules. I believe it's #1 on the list.

If I was party to a real-life argument, in which I was not involved, and suddenly heard somebody use an example of something I'd said, taken out of context, implying that all I'd done was insult somebody (when in fact the statement in question was merely a small part of a much more reasonable, valid disagreement), I'd tell them to go fuck themselves too. There was no need to bring me into this argument whatsoever.

Also, apropos of fuck all, I largely agree with the site's stance on EPs.

Re: EPs

Romanelli — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:11:11 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:11

Skinny wrote:

Oh nice, let's just start deleting any criticism of moderators.

Telling users to go f*** themselves is not acceptable. Do you not agree with that?

Read the site rules. I believe it's #1 on the list.

Re: EPs

Skinny — Thu, 6 Nov 2014 13:05:20 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 11/06/2014 18:05

Oh nice, let's just start deleting any criticism of moderators.