Best Ever Albums

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

meccalecca — Thu, 7 May 2015 13:55:13 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 05/07/2015 17:55

Muslim-Bigfoot wrote:

In another place I tried to tell the same thing and wrote a long-assed paragraph but in the end couldn't say it properly enough for people to understand.

There's so much to be said about brevity. It's why there's so much bad music writing out there. Reviewers are writing a lot without really saying very much.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

craola — Thu, 7 May 2015 13:38:23 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 05/07/2015 17:38

Saoirse wrote:

Quote:

I love Carrie & Lowell and at times love Benji, some days more than others.

But no, I think both albums reflect their creator's greater personality contrasts greater than any indisputable stylstic similarities. Benji is indeed very direct and let-the-open-wound-bleed-style un-dilutted honesty, and Kozelek like most of his records never plays coy with either how we feels in-all-honesty about any given subject, or artistically what he's intending to do with each of his songs. However, there's a big difference between appreciating his honesty and only taking the album at face value; an album of personal experiences that touch on much more abstract, far-reaching themes.

Carrie and Lowell still has that kind of Sufjan sense of grandeur and confidience, despite it's at least on the surface more modest scale compared to his previous releases, but it feels so much more... conflicted and vulnerable in a sense. It feels affected by both the shock of his mother's death and the fact that there were so many things left unsaid and so many conflicts unresolved, which in many ways (despite the varying circumstances to everybody who loses a love one) is a very universal feeling. It's almost like he wants a sense of closure or emotional catharsis, but some deep instinct is telling him to avoid seeking it at all cost and continue with his more straight-faced response, which makes the album much, much sadder when all's said and done.

I guess for a true comparison, Benji feels very much like someone on the open road who has come to terms with much of the pain and trauma in his own life and can more easily reflect on the tragedies of the outside world and his own conflicted meomories; Carrie & Lowell is someone putting on a brave face and attempts to deliver another perfect performance, but beneath the pristine surface is a much more broken and haunted performer struggling to accept all that's happened and his own stoic refusal for an easy emotional release. The painful difficulty of unconditional love, now only in spirit. Benji is very much an open book with it's pages ripped from side to side; Carrie & Lowell is like a set of beautiful russian dolls that only get more cracked, chipped and sad-eyed for each new one you open.

And yeah Im not jumping on "Carrie and Lowell" is a "rip-off" or "directly-inspired" by Benji, not only because a fair amount of C&L's material was concieved before Benji's release but also because it cheapens how both are percieved. While they both touch on themes of morality and personal loss & struggle, they show how everybody reacts in their own unique way to these tragic, unavoidable parts of life. Both personal records, both universal in what they want to convey. Comparing and contrasting the albums can be fruitful, but making it a contest to see who's more honest or the better songwriter or who got the ideas first or what have you doesn't really inspire one to delve deeper into both albums, which is vital for understanding of both Sufjan's and Kozelek's intentions.

well said.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Muslim-Bigfoot — Thu, 7 May 2015 12:53:02 GMT

Author: Muslim-Bigfoot

Posted: 05/07/2015 16:53

Norman Bates wrote:

There doesn't seem to be any endeavour for poetry in Kozelek's LP, and it's by far more poetic as a result.

That's funny and says so much in a short sentence. In another place I tried to tell the same thing and wrote a long-assed paragraph but in the end couldn't say it properly enough for people to understand.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Thu, 7 May 2015 05:19:28 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/07/2015 09:19

Quote:

I love Carrie & Lowell and at times love Benji, some days more than others.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Wed, 6 May 2015 07:11:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/06/2015 11:11

SquishypuffDave wrote:

Both artists were better with synths.

That sounds like dedicated White-Men-With-Casio talk 🤐

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Skinny — Sun, 3 May 2015 05:18:39 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 05/03/2015 09:18

I like Carrie & Lowell. I love Benji.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

andy_hunter — Sat, 2 May 2015 14:17:49 GMT

Author: andy_hunter

Posted: 05/02/2015 18:17

Do you think Sufjan listened to Benji and thought to himself "Oh for fuck sake!"?

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

koner1 — Sat, 2 May 2015 11:21:01 GMT

Author: koner1

Posted: 05/02/2015 15:21

I think what Sufjan does with his lyrics is intentionally poetic, but he's not trying to make the message of his words seem vague but at times that's indeed how they sound.

In terms of instrumentation I think there is a little bit more variation on Benji (looking at you, Ben's My Friend) however I need more listens of Carrie & Lowell to come to that conclusion, and I could still be completely wrong (I've only given it one listen). In fact, I want to look at the tunings Sufjan uses and compare them to what's on Benji, because Mark tends to use really bizarre tunings and did so on Benji.

And did I mention the second half of Should've Known Better reminds me of Jim Wise?

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Sat, 2 May 2015 11:17:53 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/02/2015 15:17

LevonTostig wrote:

Well, let's not make assumptions about where Sufjan drew inspiration from. He's been writing these songs since the death of his mother, which was prior to the release of Benji. Anyways, even if he drew some inspiration from Benji, I'm not sure why that would make his work unoriginal. The records are about completely different subject matter. Sure, maybe Sufjan liked the minimalist approach on Benji, but I doubt he needed "Carissa" to inspire lyrics about his dead mother.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I would say there's evidence on the album lyrically that some of these songs were intended to be part of the 50 states project before Age of Adz. My theory was that some of the songs on this album were written as an attempt at writing Oregon but were shelved when Sufjan was diagnosed with his nervous system disease while he focused on Age of Adz. After his mother died, I believe Sufjan revisited some of these songs and made Carrie and Lowell.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Sat, 2 May 2015 11:13:02 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/02/2015 15:13

Puncture Repair wrote:

If Benji had never been released, I would probably be quick to hail Carrie and Lowell as an classic record, but of course Sufjan was inspired by Benji in the making of his album, and it's hard not to think about that when listening to it. Sufjan hardly feels original because of that.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Sat, 2 May 2015 08:30:36 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/02/2015 12:30

Norman Bates wrote:

There doesn't seem to be any endeavour for poetry in Kozelek's LP, and it's by far more poetic as a result.

A good way of putting it - hit the nail on the head. Benji is the better record in my eyes because it's accomplished so effortlessly. Songs like 'I Can't Live Without My Mother's Love' strike an incredibly basic universal truth without coming off as remotely naff, whereas you can imagine another other song about 'loving my Mum' being sickly. I think Sufjan attempts the same thing in Fourth of July by refraining 'We're all gunna die', but that's such an overused statement, it's hard to take seriously. Discussing your life on a personal level only works in art if the listener is able to see themselves in your stories. Carrie & Lowell locked me away from investigating into Sufjan's stories further because I wasn't able to empathise, the lack of relatable stories is a result from it being perhaps too indulgent, and the poetry was another barrier to break through before understanding just what Sufjan is telling us about.

If Benji had never been released, I would probably be quick to hail Carrie and Lowell as an classic record, but of course Sufjan was inspired by Benji in the making of his album, and it's hard not to think about that when listening to it. Sufjan hardly feels original because of that.

Sisyphus accomplishes so much more than Carrie and Lowell in about a tenth of the words from Sufjan.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Sat, 2 May 2015 08:28:26 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/02/2015 12:28

I don't think these albums are really all that similar. Whereas Kozelek ruminates, perhaps to the point of obsession, on the subject of mortality, Sufjan is just waxing poetic about his late mother. The relatively unsophisticated poetry of Carrie & Lowell really appeals to me -- it's about nostalgia, bittersweet memories. By contrast, listening to Benji feels like studying the corpse of my best friend's cat after it got hit by a car. I'm sure that's a wildly unfair summary, but I think it does underscore the vast differences in the approach these artists have taken.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

HazeyTwilight — Sat, 2 May 2015 06:59:47 GMT

Author: HazeyTwilight

Posted: 05/02/2015 10:59

SquishypuffDave wrote:

Both artists were better with synths.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Norman Bates — Sat, 2 May 2015 03:21:54 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/02/2015 07:21

koner1 wrote:

For me, there is no poetry in the lyrics of Benji, but there definitely is in Carrie & Lowell.

This is interesting: that's actually how I feel, and why I prefer Benji - and a very nice, synthetic way of saying what I was trying to state above. There doesn't seem to be any endeavour for poetry in Kozelek's LP, and it's by far more poetic as a result.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Norman Bates — Sat, 2 May 2015 03:20:21 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/02/2015 07:20

I prefer Benji by quite a bit (I know this isn't the subject, but it's a necessary introduction to my point), both lyrically and musically. Lyrically it seems to me Kozelek has found some sort of maturity in the almost free-form stream of consciousness manner in which the narratives evolve, giving it this 'oh, well, man; hey, by the way' easy-going feel (that probably took of lot of work to come to btw) that I like so much. Lyrics to Stevens' LP, as heartfelt as they may be, sound more forced and I have the impression I can feel the work behind it. I like it that when I listen to Benji, it sounds as if Kozelek was conversing about how weird/hard shit happens on his porch. Masterful.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

koner1 — Fri, 1 May 2015 22:25:18 GMT

Author: koner1

Posted: 05/02/2015 02:25

For me, there is no poetry in the lyrics of Benji, but there definitely is in Carrie & Lowell.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

FlorianJones — Fri, 1 May 2015 08:02:59 GMT

Author: FlorianJones

Posted: 05/01/2015 12:02

I agree with Holden on this one. I'd like to add though that both albums can come off as incredibly morose and gloomy if you let them. But there is hope in both if you look for things like Holden listed with Benji, or the line about Sufjan's niece that Levon mentioned from Carrie and Lowell.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

HoldenM — Fri, 1 May 2015 00:15:28 GMT

Author: HoldenM

Posted: 05/01/2015 04:15

Benji doesn't mope in anything. It's morbid, but it always goes for the silver lining. His cousin dies, but decides to help her live on by sharing her short life with others. A man mercy kills his wife, but still remembers her by her garden. His grandmother dies, but she's also the reason Mark had so many amazing memories of California. He's jealous of his friend Ben, but then gets over it, and keeps making music. His mom's going to die, but only because he had an amazing relationship with her. His dad was a difficult person, but he also taught Mark so much. Mark punches kids, and his classmates die horribly, but then he works hard to become a successful musician, and eventually tells the A&R guy who signed him how much he appreciated what he did. I think that Benji is filled with tremendous humanity and clarity, and to ignore the fact it's an album filled with optimism, even in so many dark places is to misrepresent the album.

That isn't to say Benji is better than Carrie & Lowell–though I do prefer Benji–but I don't think it's as black and white as has been described.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

SquishypuffDave — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:23:56 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 05/01/2015 03:23

Both artists were better with synths.

Re: Comparing and contrasting Benji and Carrie & Lowell

Anonymous — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:17:51 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/01/2015 03:17

Interesting thread.

For me, the most notable difference as far as mood goes is that, while certainly morose, Carrie and Lowell carries this inherent sense of hope and redemption that Benji lacks. Whereas Benji mopes in its loneliness and devestation (which isn't a criticism, I like the album and Kozelek in general), Carrie and Lowell pairs tragedy with love and light.

"I should have known better
Nothing can be changed
The past is still the past
The bridge to nowhere
...
My brother had a daughter
The beauty that she brings, illumination"

Moments like that make Carrie and Lowell particularly special.