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Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Sun, 31 May 2015 06:39:33 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/31/2015 10:39

Im going to go ahead and move past focusing on GTA cause that's not leading the conversation anywhere productive, so Im just going to go ahead and state that like every single medium it is a very good thing when people get active and actually get upfront with what they perceive as troubling trends with the art they love. It forces the industry and the creative talent to actually confront, with a fresh set of perspective, not only what they're doing but what message they're sending across to their outside audience, and can actually work to bring in new voices to how the games are made & produced and break out of their shell that can grow over time, and overall keeps the industry from getting static or just too plain insular. The problem is the gaming industry have been masters of using the "LA-LA-LA-LA" approach when it comes to adressing the issues and concerns certain gamers bring up, and if it truly wants to grow as an art form it can't refuse new, outsider-but-not-really ideas and viewpoints for all eternity.

And yes often the problem with the gamer-gate is that it's far more based on personal attacks than openly adressing the issues from Sarkeesian and those who share her views brought up and whether or not there should be changes in how games deal with their female characters and the issue of the little female voice there is in the modern gaming industry, especially considering they now make up nearly half of the gaming audience. Not to mention the fact that yes it can be a challenge for certain companies in the gaming industry to all of a sudden change it's culture and actually take more viewpoints that until now we're rarely given consideration and using different perspectives to give their products, their art if you will, a much wider reflection of the world around them- but it can give games a much richer, challenging experience for their audience and actually forces them to get out of their comfortable, static view of how games should automatically work and what messages they should promote.

And if you want to pretend there isn't a sexist-based vitrol to a lot of the gamer-gate responses, look at what was said to Sarkeesian and to what was said to male colleagues who echoed or supported a lot of her views; both negative (though the tone and volume, to the surprise of nearly every non-gamer-gator, was very very much lower when responding to the latter), but only one's personal gender, and how it somehow "represented" everybody who happen to share her biological sex, was made a pointed and heated issue.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

SquishypuffDave — Sun, 31 May 2015 01:01:43 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 05/31/2015 05:01

@Happymeal (obvi)

To address a few things:

I'm not a fan of people using manipulative and deceitful tactics in order to further an agenda, and if that is the case with some of the articles in question then it isn't cool. I'm with you there.

I think it's probably the case that a person who disagrees with the agenda would be more inclined to believe there's a journalistic conspiracy, and that a person who agrees with the agenda would be less inclined to believe in a journalistic conspiracy. People are emotional beings, especially people that believe they are purely rational beings.

As I said, I don't see any conflict between having an ideology and being open to change. You accused the feminist movement of making premature judgments and not being evidence-driven, I guess my gut reaction to the gamergate movement involved some of the same doubts.

It's difficult to separate the anger about journalism ethics from the anger about the agenda the articles serve, or from some of the more personal hatred directed toward specific women. I haven't seen any gamergate-supporting articles from people that are a fan of feminism, which makes me suspicious. The fact that gamergate harassment has fallen almost exclusively upon women is also suspicious.

I also want to clarify that I don't think games are uniquely sexist. It's just that I don't think games are uniquely unsexist. I don't see sexism as a defamatory label, I see it as a system that everyone naturally internalizes to some extent, including myself.

Happymeal wrote:

Gamers are people who have an interest in gaming. By alienating that audience, you create a new audience that has very little allegiance to gaming. The point is, the reason people are buying games is because they have an interest in them. Games which already adhere to the idea of inclusion (having strong female protagonists or whatever) are still not constantly purchased by non - gamers which means people stating this must want to change the medium to a different one all together. This is because every effort that is possible without changing the medium in order to garner the non - gamer audience has been made. Perhaps a few new genres can pop up or different stories, but games have already created enough that caters to different audiences that stating "we should bridge the gap between gamers and non - gamers" is insane. It has already been done without actually changing the medium

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Since you're a fan of giving the audience what it wants, doesn't it make sense to listen to the sizable portion of gamers who are female and want to see themselves represented? The point isn't that games should be marketed to people who aren't interested in gaming, it's that they should acknowledge that people who play games come from all walks of life.

Two definitions of "gamer":
1. A person who plays games.
2. A person who plays games and is therefore from a hypermasculine outsider subculture.

The "death of gamers" thing is about the death of the second definition, because it doesn't represent the reality. The gap being bridged between "gamer" and "non-gamer" is about the dissolution of that second definition. The scare quotes are there for a reason. Nobody needs to try to bridge that gap; it's already bridged. Some people just seem to have an outdated perception of what it means to be a gamer, and the articles are trying to spread that news.

Happymeal wrote:

If the gaming industry is sexist because it doesn't have enough female protagonists (which is the gist of what I'm hearing here) and that too many female NPCs are treated poorly, then how is that not stating "a male oriented game is therefore sexist".

Because you just implied that men can't enjoy games with female protagonists, and that they can't enjoy games that don't treat their female NPCs poorly... Did you actually mean to write that?

Also, you're conflating broad trends with individual products. Even if I were to accept your premise, the argument isn't logically sound

Also, the gist of what I've been saying isn't really about how it's bad that games geared toward men usually have male protagonists. That's not particularly troubling. I guess the most relevant aspect I could direct your attention to would be empowerment. Women being endowed with agency vs women being passive or powerless. Women doing things vs women having things done to them. I think if you were to compare male and female minor characters through this lens, you'd very quickly notice a discrepancy. I find it very unlikely that this has anything to do with marketability.

Happymeal wrote:

It's odd how when you criticize something it's about elevating the medium or about trying to make it better or art or whatever, but when I criticize something, I just can't handle criticism.

I don't remember where I said this, you'll have to remind me. I don't think I ever meant to give that impression about you personally.

Happymeal wrote:

I call it bullshit because every criticism made seems to either be attempting to make a quota or just plain out stupid.

Here's an allegory. It's not a perfect allegory, but it might be of some use. Imagine that in every videogame, all the characters are anthropomorphic apples. Then some gamers start writing articles saying "Why is every character an apple? There's no good reason for all these characters to be apples." Then a bunch of other gamers get angry and write back "All my favourite games have apples! You can't force game designers not to use apples!" Then the apple-questioners write back "That's fine, but people like lots of different fruit. It would be better if there was more variety." Then the applegaters are like "You can't enforce quotas, you shrill joyless SJW, why can't you just relax and enjoy these apple games. I don't enjoy games because of who is and isn't an apple. Apple games are what sell because apple-questioners are a niche market." Then the apple-questioner is like "You don't have to be an apple-questioner to enjoy non-apple games. There's a huge banana audience that play apple games because that's just what's there." Then the applegater is like "Oh, sorry. I misunderstood. I was never threatened after all." Then they all laugh and hug.

Happymeal wrote:

And, to top it off, everything is sexist if it doesn't adhere to the ideal.

Well, I mean, if the ideal is "not being sexist", then it follows that things that don't adhere to that ideal are sexist. I guess you were thinking of a different ideal?

Happymeal wrote:

However, when journalists create a background communication in order to push this agenda (look up the game journo pros list), that's when the line is crossed. I'm fine with idiotic criticism, I'll argue against. However, action needs to be taken when media falls under such a bias that it's actively pushing this idea while being organized to do such.

That's cool then I guess. I had thought that part of the gamergate movement was about opposing social criticism in video game reviews.

I'm also a bit of a pleb so when I see the wikipedia page and it's a wall of references all saying that the journalism ethics accusations have found to be "broadly debunked, ... trivial, based on conspiracy theories, unfounded in fact, or unrelated to actual issues of ethics in the industry", I can't help but be a little bit convinced by it.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

mickilennial — Sat, 30 May 2015 13:16:09 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 05/30/2015 17:16

Necharsian wrote:

I don't think the argument that GTA is sexist is because you can kill women, but more that all women in the game are just meaningless objects. and the ones you can interact with are just for fucking.

I do not remember fucking Amanda, in fact all I remember is the relationship despite it being conflicted getting better throughout the entire game.

Except GTA5, whilst not a perfect game does try to dissect characterization of a complicated marriage and family life of Michael De Santa and I will say that despite his wife’s hypocrisy and double-standards she doesn’t exist as an object to be oogled or murdered; hell, I personally found myself curious about which way the marriage issues were going to turn by the end of the game. I could go into detail about a lot of this when I have the time – but this is like the Hitman incident where we are told by the “critics” that it’s sexist and misogynistic when it really isn’t in the way they are thinking. Is there weak female characters and object NPC’s? Mostly in GTA, sure.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Necharsian — Sat, 30 May 2015 13:09:57 GMT

Author: Necharsian

Posted: 05/30/2015 17:09

what would be an example of sexism, happymeal?

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Sat, 30 May 2015 12:51:55 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/30/2015 16:51

Necharsian wrote:

are you serious? so what would be sexist? a game has to physically put a "women are secondclass!!" loading screen? implicit sexism is just as bad as explicit sexism, and its probably even more dangerous.

All characters are essentially second class in GTA. I've played GTA: San Adreas, Vice city, and 4. All of these games show no regards for anyone inside of them. However, I didn't want to make that same assumption for 5 as that's what we were discussing (though I have seen enough game play to make the assumption). However, if we're referring to the series as a whole, no character truly matters. They're all there for you to do whatever it is you want. Which is why my second statement came into play. Both men and women are treated poorly in that game, I don't see how you can say it's sexist towards women and not towards men.

The point isn't that there's no sexism because what happens to women isn't bad, but that almost every negative action perceivable in the series happens to both men and women. Though you can get me at "but you can't have sex with men" throughout the series which is a really good point actually. However, the main characters are male in the games I mentioned so it'd be only logical for that to be solely happening to women. Of course, you could argue that they could make the game have a homosexual protagonist or a female protagonist, to which I would respond, yeah they could, but not having a female as a lead does not make it sexist.

Quote:

So even if it's right, it's still laughable? I don't get it

It's kind of obvious why. Gamers are people who have an interest in gaming. By alienating that audience, you create a new audience that has very little allegiance to gaming. The point is, the reason people are buying games is because they have an interest in them. Games which already adhere to the idea of inclusion (having strong female protagonists or whatever) are still not constantly purchased by non - gamers which means people stating this must want to change the medium to a different one all together. This is because every effort that is possible without changing the medium in order to garner the non - gamer audience has been made. Perhaps a few new genres can pop up or different stories, but games have already created enough that caters to different audiences that stating "we should bridge the gap between gamers and non - gamers" is insane. It has already been done without actually changing the medium.

Quote:

So in summary, I'm closed minded and you're a free thinker? I'm an irrational zealot and you're a dispassionate observer?

Yeah I guess we have different definitions. I don't equate ideology with rigidity or premature conclusions. Feminism developed organically over time based on observations of social convention, and it evolves as takes in new information. I see ideals as an inevitable part of existence: having an intact face matches my ideals more than having an exploded face. Even cynics are just crushed idealists.

You did ask about my "i do not adhere to ideologies" thing. I don't think I ever stated that I don't have ideals or whatever. Just that whatever I think is readily available to change at any time.

Quote:

Perhaps you'll disagree with this analysis so correct me if I'm wrong.

If the gaming industry is sexist because it doesn't have enough female protagonists (which is the gist of what I'm hearing here) and that too many female NPCs are treated poorly, then how is that not stating "a male oriented game is therefore sexist". Also, you're fairly simplistic with your end statement there. People can criticize things all they want, but I'm free to then criticize what they think. You seem to be the one who can't take criticism. It's odd how when you criticize something it's about elevating the medium or about trying to make it better or art or whatever, but when I criticize something, I just can't handle criticism. Perhaps it's because it's the ideas you cling that makes you respond this way. If it were a Jewish person saying that there were not enough Jews inside a video game and that makes you anti - Semitic, then anyone arguing against that idea wouldn't be "not able to handle criticism", but just "criticizing someone's idea".

Quote:

How much "space" should feminists be allowed to "fill" with their "ideological bullshit"? Is dictating those parameters a form of censorship? Is journalistic integrity an appropriate term to describe the subjective art of game review?

I call it bullshit because every criticism made seems to either be attempting to make a quota or just plain out stupid. And, to top it off, everything is sexist if it doesn't adhere to the ideal. However, when journalists create a background communication in order to push this agenda (look up the game journo pros list), that's when the line is crossed. I'm fine with idiotic criticism, I'll argue against. However, action needs to be taken when media falls under such a bias that it's actively pushing this idea while being organized to do such.

Quote:

This is a fair point. I probably shouldn't have spoken about GTA 5 so you got me there. However, I'm familiar enough with the game and very familiar with the series to make the statement that everyone in that game is treated like shit.

Quote:

If you still think there's a way to deny that there's an extreme disconnect between the way men and women are treated in the game and a rather vicious, rancid or when the game's at it's best rather she's-just-my-lover way the players are promoted to use their (always) male hero in interacting with the game's female characters,

You seem to take issue here with several things and I'll attempt to argue with them, but these points are very disorganized.

Yes, you can deny that there's an extreme disconnect between the poor treatment of each sex because guess what? Everyone is treated poorly. In fact, the only characters to have been tortured and have their genitals mutilated in that game were male. You can also beat and kill men in that game. And perhaps it'd be only fair to have a female protagonist, but I've already argued why not having female protagonists doesn't make a game sexist previously. The point isn't that females aren't treated badly, but that everyone in that game is treated badly. It's the nature of that type of game. The point is that you're arguing that a game which treats everyone poorly is sexist despite the fact it treats everyone poorly.

EDIT: I do want to clarify that I have played some of GTA 5. I may have misled people into thinking that I haven't. However, I just wanted to clarify previously that I haven't played the entire game through. It's just a very boring game.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Sat, 30 May 2015 03:22:24 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/30/2015 07:22

Happymeal wrote:

That doesn't really make it sexist either. Not adhering to quotas does not make a game sexist. I would never suggest shoehorning in things solely because of this complaint. Of course, this is assuming that the statement "the ones you can interact with are just for fucking" is true. I have a feeling it's not, but I haven't played the game too much because, like I said, it's not my type of game.

Would you people also consider it sexist to possess the same scenario except the opposite way around? Perhaps you think differently, but there are quite a few people who turn that into a statement of female empowerment. I'm not stating those people are wrong in that regard, but if it's not sexist both ways, then it's not sexist at all. Now, you may disagree with this sentiment, but that's what I think regarding this scenario.

Happymeal, again I find it kind of funny (well no but let's just put it that way) that you constantly demand concrete "examples" and then you make a big assertion that a game isn't sexist and we're wrong for seeing it that way (please don't give a bullshit response denying this because of what semantics were used)... while admitting you aren't that familiar with it. So, go ahead define sexism and define misogyny for me. Describe in detail what happens to women throughout GTA. If you still think there's a way to deny that there's an extreme disconnect between the way men and women are treated in the game and a rather vicious, rancid or when the game's at it's best rather she's-just-my-lover way the players are promoted to use their (always) male hero in interacting with the game's female characters, then you might as well just stick your fingers in your ear and yell "LA-LA-LA-LA" for all eternity.

Keep in mind here I have always been a big fan of GTA- as a greater whole, though with some rather rotten blemishes. Doesn't mean I can't find many disturbing faults in the way the game is produced and how it treats certain characters, and how it relates to the wider and not isolated issue of how video games tend to (but defintely not always) treat it's female characters poorly. The main thing is GTA is far from the only culprit here.

To the second point, If it happened the other way around, where men were routinely physically beaten by women (and Im not saying in a standard female-avatar-in-a-boss-fight), used as nothing but a sexual playtoy or at best, generic romantic motivations and the women got points for harming/soliciting sex from them, that would be disgraceful and in no ways should be treated as something to condone. You seem to love using the "give examples" cop-out to fudge the greater issue, so instead if you see a game where everything I described above happens on screen then in all earnesty yes let's discuss it in greater detail and how it applies to the issue of hypocritical sexism.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Tap — Sat, 30 May 2015 02:44:59 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 05/30/2015 06:44

games journalism used to have integrity. like when I read nintendo power I knew that they weren't just trying to sell me on something. but now everyone has an agenda and it is a completely new phenomenon.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

SquishypuffDave — Sat, 30 May 2015 02:27:20 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 05/30/2015 06:27

Happymeal wrote:

Would you people also consider it sexist to possess the same scenario except the opposite way around? Perhaps you think differently, but there are quite a few people who turn that into a statement of female empowerment. I'm not stating those people are wrong in that regard, but if it's not sexist both ways, then it's not sexist at all. Now, you may disagree with this sentiment, but that's what I think regarding this scenario.

It kinda depends, but context is everything. Maybe it would help to use racism as an example:

Link

You're talking a lot about "shoehorning" and "censoring" but I haven't seen anyone suggest that anywhere in this thread.

Quote:

This term refers less to the end of video gaming itself and more to the expansion of the medium to a much larger audience, something that is indisputably true. It's about the line between "gamers" and "non-gamers" being broken down.

Happymeal wrote:

Lol, I'm not stating that interpretation is wrong or right, but people who are proponents of that are just laughable. I still think that interpretation is wrong, but it's at least a different one.

So even if it's right, it's still laughable? I don't get it.

Anyways, here's the list I used as a reference:
https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamers-are-dead-article-analysis/

I actually can kinda see why the premise makes some people angry. The death of an identity as a unique class of outsiders with their own culture and history. You described it best: they feel like people they don't relate to are invading their space and attempting to fill it with "ideological bullshit".

We're probably never going to reach an agreement about whether or not there really is some sort of far reaching journalistic conspiracy set on destroying everything these aforementioned gamers love. If so, then articles from respected sources must be dismissed as part of the feminist propaganda that's intent on putting vaginas on all your favourite male videogame characters and shoehorning in castration cutscenes. If it really does go that deep, then this is some illuminati-level shit and you truly are a lone voice of reason in an insane world.

(I know that's not what you literally believe, but this is how a lot of it comes across to me in the language you've used.)

Quote:

You've made a lot of ideological and political claims, like demanding no "politics" in game discussion (which is itself a political statement). Maybe you have a different definition of ideology though? It seems to be a dirty word to you.

Happymeal wrote:

See, having a conclusion after reviewing the evidence such as the conclusion "ideologies should not be forced onto people in regards to the creation of art" is different from Christianity or feminism which prematurely states what is right or wrong. The difference between myself and ideologues is that I make a conclusion after reviewing evidence and a situation, ideologues make conclusions prematurely.

The second thing is that my belief is not a body. These are individual conclusions which can be changed at any time. An ideologue would be forced to explain why something does or doesn't fit into its ideology while my perspective allows me to change conclusions when new evidence is presented. Do you see what I mean? I do not adhere to my ideas strictly while ideologues must. Otherwise, they aren't an ideologue.

Happymeal wrote:

They don't love the games because of what gender each character is, what race each character is, etc. like you guys do.

Quote:

I also like puzzle mechanics and pirates.

Happymeal wrote:

Good for you. Hopefully you eventually see why quotas are bad.

In case it didn't come across, I thought your description of my reasons for enjoying games was bizarre. Again, you're the only person that has brought up quotas. Games can be about male characters without being sexist. Games can be directed toward a male audience without being sexist. Your attitude to this whole thing seems pretty dualistic: either feminism is forcing strict guidelines on what developers are allowed to do, or they're absent from game criticism.

How much "space" should feminists be allowed to "fill" with their "ideological bullshit"? Is dictating those parameters a form of censorship? Is journalistic integrity an appropriate term to describe the subjective art of game review? These questions and many more will be answered in the next action-packed episode of Issues in Video Games and Entertainment.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

SuedeSwede — Fri, 29 May 2015 20:12:15 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 05/30/2015 00:12

i didnt even know this thread existed

lol

hey guys

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

benpaco — Fri, 29 May 2015 19:49:01 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 05/29/2015 23:49

Necharsian wrote:

I'm actuLly sort of with Joseph and you here. GTA V is sexist but is not the worst offender and leaves room for a player to never go through anything misogynistic. If you want, you never have to use those women. However, the fact that women in the game are either to run over with a car or have sex with, while men are to run over with a car or in a plethora of other roles. The idea that GTA's model is sexist isn't totally true (nor what you're saying, but have heard it elsewhere), and I think the whole game could have been saved by a strong female character, even just one. I have no problem with prostitutes existing as long as there's an alternative, and while I guess you can create a character, that pales in comparison to, say, Dragon Age 2, which has male and female protagonists in addition to male and female prostitutes. The idea that having a prostitute in a game is often thrown out as automatically sexist but I don't think it has to be, GTA just should have had more of a range of female characters (let's be honest, having one of the three protagonists be a woman would have changed very little about the story but would have helped this a lot).

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Necharsian — Fri, 29 May 2015 16:16:40 GMT

Author: Necharsian

Posted: 05/29/2015 20:16

Happymeal wrote:

That doesn't really make it sexist either. Not adhering to quotas does not make a game sexist.

Happymeal wrote:

Would you people also consider it sexist to possess the same scenario except the opposite way around?

isn't it strange when you have to use an imaginary scenario of opposites to argue a point. "well if that's sexist than so is this" should probably not be a debating chip, especially when a real-life example of the latter doesn't exist, but tons of the former do.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Fri, 29 May 2015 15:54:42 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/29/2015 19:54

Necharsian wrote:

I don't think the argument that GTA is sexist is because you can kill women, but more that all women in the game are just meaningless objects. and the ones you can interact with are just for fucking.

Quote:

Lol, I'm not stating that interpretation is wrong or right, but people who are proponents of that are just laughable. I still think that interpretation is wrong, but it's at least a different one.

Quote:

"the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group." is what I utilize for the definition of ideology.

See, having a conclusion after reviewing the evidence such as the conclusion "ideologies should not be forced onto people in regards to the creation of art" is different from Christianity or feminism which prematurely states what is right or wrong. The difference between myself and ideologues is that I make a conclusion after reviewing evidence and a situation, ideologues make conclusions prematurely.

The second thing is that my belief is not a body. These are individual conclusions which can be changed at any time. An ideologue would be forced to explain why something does or doesn't fit into its ideology while my perspective allows me to change conclusions when new evidence is presented. Do you see what I mean? I do not adhere to my ideas strictly while ideologues must. Otherwise, they aren't an ideologue.

Quote:

I'm not familiar with this part. That would certainly be an odd thing to claim

A few of the journalists in question had stated that. Of course, I don't want you believing things without evidence so I'll look for the articles/pages which had said that sort of thing.

Quote:

I also like puzzle mechanics and pirates.

Good for you. Hopefully you eventually see why quotas are bad.

EDIT:

Saoirse wrote:

^ thank you, Necharsian, although I hope that was just a general (very useful) critique and not taking the bait. Now can we finally just movveeee on... (and please don't drudge up more responses or indignant accusations as an excuse to flog a dead horse even further. Oh perhaps that's just baiting more, I donno, lose-lose. LET'S ALL GET DRUNK INSTEAD).

The thread is "Issues in video games and entertainment". The issues I'm currently discussing are ones I believe to be important and are completely relevant to the thread. I'm not sure why you're attempting to stop this. Of course people who take sides are gonna be aggressive in discussion. There's nothing wrong with that so long as we aren't being total dicks. As far as I can see, squishy and I are still adding to important discussion and these statements aren't that redundant either. I may disagree with Squishy, but he's bringing really competent points here. That's what makes good discussion.

EDIT 2:

Gamergate and SPJ for anyone who is intrigued. http://journoterrorist.com/airplay/

This might be the most important event in regards to this movement possible. I'm so glad this is happening.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

SquishypuffDave — Fri, 29 May 2015 05:12:15 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 05/29/2015 09:12

Saoirse wrote:

Now can we finally just movveeee on...

Nah. Just a little bit more.

Happymeal wrote:

To top it off, the journalists that push this agenda subsequently state that gamers (their fuckin audience) are dead...

Happymeal wrote:

...that they don't even like or care about video games, and etc.

I'm not familiar with this part. That would certainly be an odd thing to claim.

Happymeal wrote:

I do not adhere to ideologies.

Happymeal wrote:

They don't love the games because of what gender each character is, what race each character is, etc. like you guys do.

I also like puzzle mechanics and pirates.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Fri, 29 May 2015 04:07:37 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/29/2015 08:07

^ thank you, Necharsian, although I hope that was just a general (very useful) critique and not taking the bait. Now can we finally just movveeee on... (and please don't drudge up more responses or indignant accusations as an excuse to flog a dead horse even further. Oh perhaps that's just baiting more, I donno, lose-lose. LET'S ALL GET DRUNK INSTEAD).

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Necharsian — Thu, 28 May 2015 15:30:00 GMT

Author: Necharsian

Posted: 05/28/2015 19:30

I don't think the argument that GTA is sexist is because you can kill women, but more that all women in the game are just meaningless objects. and the ones you can interact with are just for fucking.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Applerill — Thu, 28 May 2015 15:12:46 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 05/28/2015 19:12

You know what game all you kids should be playing?

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

(Really, it's a good game, and brings back nostalgia to me)

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Thu, 28 May 2015 14:57:54 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/28/2015 18:57

Saoirse wrote:

For the love of gawd here please stop people. All your doing is playing the indignant defensive my-shit-stinks-less blowhard where the actual issue at hand is starting to feel like a footnote in this war of battling egos.

I'm talking about what I find to be the biggest issue related to this thread. Perhaps you disagree, but I attempted to engage you on a point previously and you didn't respond which, to me, seems like the biggest way to cease discussion of what you believe to be the actual issue. Just to clarify, here was a response to you earlier:

Happymeal wrote:

Saoirse wrote:

Okay obv what one finds "sexist" is subjective, but when in games a women has no role except to be rescued by a male hero or when you get rewards for beating up or solicitating sex from women, how can one possibly take that as a positive portrayel of women in video games?

Yes, but that isn't necessarily sexism unless it's solely happening to women. GTA V is an example of a game that often receives the criticism of being sexist, but this is a fallacy. You have the option to kill whoever the fuck you want in GTA and get rewards by killing everyone. That's not to say I think this game is good. I hate this type of "kill everyone" type game, but it's particularly far from sexism. Provide some examples of your viewpoint btw, it really helps people comprehend it when you provide evidence.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Thu, 28 May 2015 11:54:06 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/28/2015 15:54

For the love of gawd here please stop people. All your doing is playing the indignant defensive my-shit-stinks-less blowhard where the actual issue at hand is starting to feel like a footnote in this war of battling egos. Again, maybeeeee time to get off gamergate cause no one really seems to have anything new to add, we can talk about hollywood sexism or something else or... really who cares go I guess Im knee deep in the same shit and complaining about the smell, so go write endless posts of the I-know-what-you-are-but-what-am-I variety or sth who knows gotta go make a living.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

Anonymous — Thu, 28 May 2015 11:35:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/28/2015 15:35

Quote:

Got about ten minutes into it, but I had to stop because it left such a bad taste in my mouth. Look at those examples he lists of "articles that have nothing to do with games". They all clearly do, they're about the human aspects of games, the messages they send, treating them like art, etc. See what Applerill was saying about gamergators not being able to handle social criticism that is already given to every other medium? Interpreting it as a personal attack, a calculated campaign to make gamers look bad. This kind of response is what makes gamers look bad.

Applerill says a lot of stuff I disagree with and so I still don't see it. And of course people interpret attacks on their identity as personal. Gamers, whether male, female, minority, or whatever, identify as people who love games because they are fun to play, because these games give them a meritocracy like no other, and because people accept you based on your love of the games. They don't love the games because of what gender each character is, what race each character is, etc. like you guys do. Gamers are gonna take issue when you invade a space and attempt to fill it with ideological bullshit. And while most gamers are fine with criticism, utilizing the media unethically as a means to push your ideology is just wrong. To top it off, the journalists that push this agenda subsequently state that gamers (their fuckin audience) are dead, that they don't even like or care about video games, and etc. Do you not see how gamers as a group of people would take issue with this? The problem isn't with gamers, it's with people like you. And I'm fine taking a strong stance in what I believe.

Quote:

While I'm open to the possibility of the accusations about Zoe being true, the video comes off as conspiracy theory. There are a lot of conclusions being jumped to and the personal nature of these accusations just make this whole thing seem really distasteful.

Conspiracy theory does not equate to being wrong. Personally, I view things as series of events and all that matters is whether the facts correlate with what happened. I want to clarify that I'm not the type of person who really cares about the media, especially gaming media. I had rarely utilized it previously and still don't utilize much gaming media. However, even as someone who didn't possess much interest in this, I noticed unethical behavior. I saw the evidence and I listened to both sides of the argument and yet came to the conclusion, as a neutral person, that there was indeed unethical behavior involved. Am I saying this proves anything? No. However, it's quite obvious the dichotomy between our priorities. You care about pushing agenda, I care about ethical behavior.

Quote:

This is true of no-one that has ever lived.

Well, perhaps you think so, but that's because you're an ideologue who believes everyone else must also be one. There's nothing wrong with being an ideologue (well except everything that your ideology tends to cause), but don't accuse everyone else of being one solely because of your perspective.

Re: Issues in Video Games and Entertainment

SquishypuffDave — Thu, 28 May 2015 08:21:09 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 05/28/2015 12:21

Yo dawg, someone heard I like nutshells, so they put a nutshell around my opinion so I can post my opinion in a nutshell.

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.