Best Ever Albums

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Fri, 6 Mar 2009 16:09:37 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/06/2009 21:09

Sorry it took so long to understand that. Thank you for agreeing to disagree.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:49:31 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/06/2009 19:49

I wasn't expecting you to agree with me.
I think I made my point very clear on my previous posts, and I have no intentions on further discussions about this issue.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:56:41 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/06/2009 18:56

Man, if you have to ask what jazz is, you'll never know. - Louis Armstrong.

Greatest Hits and Best of albums are a good way to be introduced to a musician. If you liked some songs you could then listen to the album from which they came. If you decided you really liked it you could listen to another album or a complete works set by the same musician.

There is nothing wrong with my lists; they contain the best in jazz! The beginner may randomly choose any album or do their own research on the albums listed before making a listen or purchase decision. Shorter lists only introduce the makers bias which may be completely different than another listener, beginner or veteran.

He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. - Albert Einstein.

We cannot force people to enjoy jazz. We can offer them numerous examples of great jazz to encourage their enjoyment. Take my advice, stop worrying and start listening to great jazz.

To err is human, to forgive, divine. – Alexander Pope.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:31:08 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/06/2009 16:31

RFNAPLES wrote:

I chose to list my recommendations alphabetically by last name because that is how I keep my collection within major genres. A chronological list is difficult when the recommended works include anthologies, greatest hits, best ofs, complete works and many musicians have recorded for decades. Feel free to order your lists any way you wish. I find it easier to think of a musician and immediately find their great works.

But why would you want to recommend greatest hits or best ofs? And even the complete works for a beginner is totally innecesary.

And the issue here is not about you and me, is about the ones who want to get into the genre. I couldn't care less if you would have posted your list on a "what are your favorite jazz albums thread", but we have here third persons involved, and you have to think on them.

There aren't enough jazz fans around, and the ones who want to get into the genre may get scared because they are not guided rightly, and thats why I'm commenting on your list, because following it just as it is would be an error.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Fri, 6 Mar 2009 00:44:41 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/06/2009 05:44

The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings: Ninth Edition by Richard Cook and Brian Morton; All Music Guide to Jazz - 4th Edition by Vladimir Bogdanov, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine, and; Musichound Jazz: The Essential Album Guide edited by Steven Holtje and Nancy Ann Lee are all great discographies but those tomes are not really aimed at the beginner. The New York Times Essential Library: Jazz--A Critic's Guide to the 100 Most Important Recordings by Ben Ratliff and The NPR Curious Listener's Guide to Jazz by Loren Schoenberg and Wynton Marsalis might be helpful for beginners but more difficult than the three I mentioned earlier. Don’t be insulted by the dummies and idiots titles, even seasoned aficionados can gain insights from them.

I chose to list my recommendations alphabetically by last name because that is how I keep my collection within major genres. A chronological list is difficult when the recommended works include anthologies, greatest hits, best ofs, complete works and many musicians have recorded for decades. Feel free to order your lists any way you wish. I find it easier to think of a musician and immediately find their great works.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:03:54 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/06/2009 04:03

You don't necessary need to rank them specifically, but to give those albums some kind of order, even a chronlogical one with a few spaces would have been 10 times better, and it would not look like a homework due on sunday night.

Quote:

There have been entire books about Jazz for beginners and most list over 100 albums each. Check out Jazz For Dummies, 2nd Edition by Dirk Sutro or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz by Alan Axelrod or The Rough Guide to Jazz: 100 Essential CDs by Digby Fairweather and Brian Priestley. Again I am not a fan of rankings or short lists.

I haven't read the Jazz For Dummies or he Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz, and by just reading the name of those books I think I never will... 🙄

If you want a real good book, there's the "Penguin Guide To Jazz", right now on its 9th edition. And yes, there are thousand of albums listed on that book, the difference is that great part of those albums listed have reviews and ratings, and there's also the selective choices called the "core collection" for the ones that are starting with the genre. And as the book says, it is a guide, not just a rough list without any information whatsoever on what can expect from them.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:37:50 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/06/2009 02:37

There have been entire books about Jazz for beginners and most list over 100 albums each. Check out Jazz For Dummies, 2nd Edition by Dirk Sutro or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jazz by Alan Axelrod or The Rough Guide to Jazz: 100 Essential CDs by Digby Fairweather and Brian Priestley. Again I am not a fan of rankings or short lists.

Truths and roses have thorns about them. - Henry David Thoreau. The optimist sees the rose and not its thorns; the pessimist stares at the thorns, oblivious to the rose - Kahlil Gibran. Caveat emptor!

Re: Jazz for beginners!

joannajewsom — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 21:08:32 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 03/06/2009 02:08

Your extensive list is all over the place, and is completely impractical. You can talk about 99.99999% all you want, but I doubt a "beginner" who wants an introduction would call a list of 100 albums 'narrow'. That's what you're missing. No one cares about the 170,000 cds on amazon, and telling us that doesn't make your list feel any smaller. I don't even want to know how you gathered that information.

The O.P. used the term "Beginner". You don't throw over 100 albums at a beginner. You give them a few essential works to start with. What's also obvious, to everyone else at least, is that when introducing someone to a genre of music, you want to introduce them to those works/artists who epitomized and defined the genre in its purest form. You don't start beginner's off by recommending contested sub-genres and bastardized pop versions. Purists don't like Kenny G because of people like you, who would recommend him to a beginner, who would then hear Kenny G and think "Okay, that's jazz".

Thanks for the life lesson, Lord Buddha. I now see the light.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:05:14 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/06/2009 01:05

joannajewsom wrote:

I don't have any advice on where to start or what would be the best album to introduce you to jazz. There are so many different types of jazz (cool, avant-garde, hard bop, vocal, fusion).

Nevertheless we have attempted to give it. Personally I find giving only a few choices quite limiting. What if they had dissimilar interests? What if they didn't like bebop or preferred the commercially successful JAZZ albums of Jones and G because they were easier to get into? My two lists eliminate over 99.999% of jazz albums thus providing a starting ground.

In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. - Lord Buddha

Re: Jazz for beginners!

joannajewsom — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:34:31 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 03/06/2009 00:34

RFNAPLES wrote:

Yes Kenny G is on the list. He started in jazz copying Grover Washington Jr and was on his high school jazz band. He plays what is called smooth jazz. He has been a commercial success and while some purists hate him, others love him. His current label is Concord Jazz.

Jazz is such a large field. Each of the musicians and their publishers think their jazz is good. Everybody's tastes vary. Amazon.com currently lists 173,256 jazz music CDs. So my two lists pare that number down for the novice to choose from. No information was provided regarding the inquirer’s likes or dislikes; instrumental or vocal; solo, small group or large group; style or genre; time period or country of origin; studio or live; etc. It would be like going to a pharmacist and asking for something good.

I don't know why you chose to give me a brief bio, as if I don't know who Kenny G is. I was asking a rhetorical question. I couldn't care less about his commercial success. Pointing a beginner, who's trying to get a basic overview of jazz, toward Kenny G is absurd. Purists hate him because a) he sucks and b) to label him jazz is an insult. Whether he sucks or not, is subjective. But, objectively speaking, Kenny G is far removed from the essential, groundbreaking, and progressive works created throughout the history of jazz by those who epitomized and, ultimately, defined the genre; therefore, he is a poor reference point, regardless of taste. Purists hate him because a lot of people who don't know anything about jazz, hear the word "jazz", and think of crap like Kenny G. It's like calling Paris Hilton an actress. I'm sure Bette Davis is rolling in her grave.
Same goes for Norah Jones, who I actually like as far as relaxing, harmless, sleepy-time music goes. She's not a good starting point, though.

Just because there are 100,000+ jazz cds, doesn't mean that a list of 100 is helpful, especially if it's in alphabetical order as opposed to a ranking based on quality. Now the beginner just has to comb through a list of 100. If he or she wanted to do that, he could just go to allmusic, click on the jazz page, and go down the list. A beginner would be looking for a few essential works to start with.

And it's not like going to a pharmacy and asking for something good. Asking about a specific genre isn't as broad as just saying "give me some drugs". It's more like going into a pharmacy and asking for cough medicine, if you would like an analogy.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:45:18 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/05/2009 23:45

Those elements aren't in every jazz number. Linguists might enjoy semasiology and formal semantic, semiotic, pragmatic, and cognitive semantic debates. Personally I prefer enjoying music, jazz or otherwise.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:39:57 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/05/2009 23:39

RFNAPLES wrote:

It uses blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and shuffle notes.

None of those artists I mentioned cover almost any of those descriptions you gave, specially the improvisation which is almost none.

Quote:

Smooth jazz is a sub-genre of jazz beginning in the early 1970s which is influenced stylistically by R&B, funk and pop.

Same here, smooth jazz lacks of improvisation, that's why it is discarded from jazz.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:08:03 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/05/2009 19:08

Jazz is hard to define. The word jazz began as a West Coast slang term of uncertain derivation and was first used to refer to music in Chicago about 1915.

Jazz was primarily an American musical art form which originated in African American communities in the Southern United States from a confluence of African and European music traditions. It uses blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and shuffle notes. As jazz spread around the world it drew on local national and regional musical cultures and adapted to its varied environments and gave rise to many distinctive styles.

Jazz has a variety of subgenres, from New Orleans Dixieland dating from the early 1910s, big band-style swing from the 1930s and 1940s, bebop from the mid-1940s, a variety of Latin jazz fusions such as Afro-Cuban and Brazilian jazz from the 1950s and 1960s, jazz-rock fusion from the 1970s and late 1980s developments such as acid jazz, which blended jazz influences into funk and hip-hop. Smooth jazz is a sub-genre of jazz beginning in the early 1970s which is influenced stylistically by R&B, funk and pop.

Jazz: I know it when I hear it.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:46:39 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/05/2009 18:46

Ok, here's a question for you. What is jazz?
Or better, how would you make a difference between say a group like Morphine (which has no use of guitars but sax), and Miles Davis of the 70s (Bitches Brew, On The Corner...)? Why do you think one is considered jazz while the other is not?

Since the 70's, Blue Note is no more an exclusive label for jazz releases only.

There are hundreds of albums with a jazz vein (The Doors, Fun House, Trout Mask Replica, In the Court of The crimson King....) but are still not jazz.

Smooth Jazz is not considered as a subgenre of jazz for the majority of critics.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:28:59 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/05/2009 18:28

Come Away with Me is the debut album of pianist and singer Norah Jones, released February 26, 2002 on Blue Note Records. Although genre classification has been disputed, Jones' mellow style and playing on Come Away with Me is recognized as contemporary jazz. Feels Like Home is the second album by jazz songwriter Norah Jones, released in 2004. It includes the song "Don't Miss You at All" (Duke Ellington, Jones).

Mingus is the tenth studio album by Joni Mitchell, and a collaboration with jazz musician Charles Mingus. It was Mingus's final musical project; the album is wholly dedicated to him. The album is quite experimental, featuring minimalist jazz. Personnel: Joni Mitchell - guitar, vocals; Jaco Pastorius - bass, horn arrangement on "The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines"; Wayne Shorter - soprano saxophone; Herbie Hancock - electric piano; Peter Erskine – drums; Don Alias – congas; Emil Richards – percussion.

Buena Vista Social Club is a studio album by Cuban bandleader and musician Juan de Marcos González and American guitarist Ry Cooder with traditional Cuban musicians, released September 16, 1997 on World Circuit Records. I consider it a fine example of Latin Jazz while others may call it World, son cubano, bolero, guajira.

High Priestess of Soul is a studio album by singer/pianist/songwriter Nina Simone (1933-2003). While the album contains popular songs and Church-African-Folk-related songs delivered in a jazz vein, it also includes songs by Duke Ellington/Irving Mills ("The Gal from Joe's") and Nat Adderley/Oscar Brown, Jr. ("Work Song").

I have already commented on Kenny G.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:30:22 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/05/2009 16:30

Yes Kenny G is on the list. He started in jazz copying Grover Washington Jr and was on his high school jazz band. He plays what is called smooth jazz. He has been a commercial success and while some purists hate him, others love him. His current label is Concord Jazz.

Jazz is such a large field. Each of the musicians and their publishers think their jazz is good. Everybody's tastes vary. Amazon.com currently lists 173,256 jazz music CDs. So my two lists pare that number down for the novice to choose from. No information was provided regarding the inquirer’s likes or dislikes; instrumental or vocal; solo, small group or large group; style or genre; time period or country of origin; studio or live; etc. It would be like going to a pharmacist and asking for something good.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:24:11 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/05/2009 16:24

RFNAPLES wrote:

Yes I have listened to and own all the albums mentioned. They are all jazz unless I made a mistake in cataloging them. Give me an example of one or two that you don't think are jazz.

They are among the best ever albums in jazz. But like most jazz albums they don't appear on many greatest albums of all time lists since they usually contain mostly Anglo Rock.

There's a big influence of jazz on all of these musicians, although I wouldn't call them jazz:

norah jones (pop music)
kenny g (pop music)
joni mitchell (pop-rock)
buena vista social club (latin)
nina simone (for the specific record you are mentioning, because she actually has a few jazz albums).

I would lie to you if I say there aren't a lot gems in there, because there are. The problem is that the list looks pretty irregular in quality to me, because at one side you have listed some excellent records from Duke Ellington and on the other side plenty of Chick Corea, Kenny G and Pat Metheny.

I also will second what joannajewsom said.

It has nothing to do with with the greatest albums lists that includes mainly rock albums.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

joannajewsom — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 08:39:47 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 03/05/2009 13:39

Do you really have Kenny G on there? And why would you just throw out almost 100 albums in a Jazz for Beginner's thread? The O.P. was looking for a starting point.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

RFNAPLES — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 04:59:17 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/05/2009 09:59

Yes I have listened to and own all the albums mentioned. They are all jazz unless I made a mistake in cataloging them. Give me an example of one or two that you don't think are jazz.

They are among the best ever albums in jazz. But like most jazz albums they don't appear on many greatest albums of all time lists since they usually contain mostly Anglo Rock.

Re: Jazz for beginners!

bc1991 — Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:38:38 GMT

Author: bc1991

Posted: 03/05/2009 05:38

It looks more like a copy/paste list to me.
There are several albums there that I don't consider to be jazz, and several that are jazz but I wouldn't put near the top 500.
Have you listened to all the albums listed RFNaples?