Best Ever Albums

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:26:41 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/31/2016 20:26

meccalecca wrote:

There's a spectacular irony to the complaints that pop punk bands don't conform to punk's principles of non conformity.

Well sure it's ironic when you put it like that, but it's the way it is. That's like saying any 'rebellion' against conformity is conformist by conforming to what a 'rebellion' is. If a punk band decided it'd be cool if all of their songs sounded neat and tidy and their songs were meticulously composed because they're not confirming to punk principles, they're not punk-punk, they're just not punk.

Common definition for punk is "political, anti-establishment". When you're anti-anti-establishment you're the establishment, which you could argue usually includes pop music. Hence the oxymoron.

Before I dig myself a deeper hole, I'm far from an expert on the genre, and really just trying to figure out what it is I don't like about pop-punk as a whole.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

meccalecca — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:12:00 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/31/2016 18:12

There's a spectacular irony to the complaints that pop punk bands don't conform to punk's principles of non conformity.

While I may never listen to it, Dookie was a very important album in my story arc.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

benpaco — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:46:09 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:46

Satie wrote:

you act as if it's a bad thing for people to just get to the point with pop music. My War is fucking unlistenable. Double Nickels will always be one of my earliest favorite records, but it's bloated as shit for what it is.

Applerill wrote:

Green Day mostly sucks here, though, but that mostly has to do with a lack of songs like "Brain Stew".

Never have I disagreed with both polar opposites of an argument more

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Space-Dementia — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:30:21 GMT

Author: Space-Dementia

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:30

HoldenM wrote:

Track picks
4. Longview
7. Basket Case
8. She
10. When I Come Around
11. Coming Clean

Yes. All these plus Welcome to Paradise are so good. I prefer this one to American Idiot, just because it's a lot more consistent. I can't think of a bad song on this album, while American Idiot has filler songs like Are We the Waiting and Extraordinary Girl.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:19:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:19

benpaco wrote:

Don't pretend that all punk is 3 chords.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Applerill — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:17:37 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:17

My two favorite punk albums are

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Horses by Patti Smith
and

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The Best Damn Thing by Avril Lavigne

I think you can see both Blink-182 and Pere Ubu as punk. Green Day mostly sucks here, though, but that mostly has to do with a lack of songs like "Brain Stew".

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

benpaco — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:11:19 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:11

Satie wrote:

The spirit of punk to me is having no fucking idea how to play an instrument and bemoaning artists who do

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My War by Black Flag

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Double Nickels On The Dime by Minutemen

Don't pretend that all punk is 3 chords.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

HoldenM — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:02:15 GMT

Author: HoldenM

Posted: 01/31/2016 17:02

A damn fine album.

Track picks
4. Longview
7. Basket Case
8. She
10. When I Come Around
11. Coming Clean

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:50:47 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/31/2016 16:50

The spirit of punk to me is having no fucking idea how to play an instrument and bemoaning artists who do, and pop music generally works that way, too. It's much weirder to me that so many art school kids made punk bands at the turn of the '80s than it is that California suburbanites made adolescent pop music in the '90s.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:27:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/31/2016 16:27

I feel like if punk isn't trying to be adversarial, it's missing the point. That's totally subjective though, and I guess comes down to perspective, 'punk' is just a word at the end of the day.

People totally can explore the theme of fighting conformity within pop, and it's always cool to try new things like that, but that doesn't mean it won't be crap. In most cases of pop punk, also, it feels like it's bringing pop to punk, and not the other way round. In this sense, it comes across as dumbing it down for mass appeal (which isn't a problem in itself, rather goes against the 'spirit' of punk), instead of using punk to make pop more interesting and test the genre.

I get the argument that this is a genre with a history, but I would also apply my thoughts to the Ramones, who I don't enjoy either. Pop Punk has been around for much longer than I have, and is immensely popular, but I believe that the genre is built on two miss-matched messages at its core.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

mickilennial — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:15:35 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 01/31/2016 14:15

Some of the Ramones favorite bands included The Beach Boys, The Trashmen, and others. You can hear their love for pop hooks, melodies, and harmonies in the very first record they put out. Other early punk such as The Buzzcocks also followed similar aesthetic. Even at the time there was plenty "outsider pop music" and pop is not synonymous with conformity and anti-punk at all.

I mean yeah, in the 90s a lot of these bands full of teenagers and young adults were more influenced by pop-punk and skate punk than actually representing it and a lot were taken advantage of by corporate labels (hence mall punk and bands like Sum41) but that is no reason to disregard the legitimate style that pre-existed for twenty years.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

SuedeSwede — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:40:45 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 01/31/2016 13:40

Puncture Repair wrote:

I've got nothing against the term, it describes the music fine, the music itself just doesn't sit right. Punk is supposed to be a middle finder up to conformity, but then Pop Punk tries to do that through conforming. The result is that it sounds like the only person it'll actually offend is your great aunt.

I strongly disagree with basically all this. 1) punk being constrained by this idea of fighting conformity is pretty silly, since a large majority of it just straight up doesn't. Even early examples, which feeds into 2) why can't people explore this theme of fighting conformity within a pop context anyways? It's not like all pop immediately becomes conformist music just because it is pop music. Take for example the Ramones, a very very early punk band, who were more than anything essentially a pop punk band. But they still were part of the beginning of a huge movement.

Onto the actual album though, its just good fun and I can't deny its goofy adolescence.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

SuedeSwede — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:34:16 GMT

Author: SuedeSwede

Posted: 01/31/2016 13:34

Molly's Lips was originally a twee pop song by The Vaselines which may explain its poppy edge. Neither version is pop punk though.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

Anonymous — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:30:58 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/31/2016 13:30

Gowi wrote:

Well, whilst the terminology itself does sound like an oxymoron it really isn’t when you dissect it. All it does is following the standards set down by The Ramones who obviously used pop hooks and such within a punk landscape. No matter how you feel about the term, it is legitimate and it does mean something. While I have a hard time calling Green Day straight out pop-punk they do have plenty in common with the genre’s predecessors of the time (Screeching Weasel, The Vandals, The Vindictives, The Dickies, etc).

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

RoundTheBend — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 01:45:50 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 01/31/2016 06:45

sethmadsen wrote:

I think they wanted that bittersweet mix of true punk and true pop music (meaning music for the masses, not the genre).

This by the way is my favorite artist... the artist that can both make the college professor AND the construction worker come together for the same thing... a connection through music. If an artist can do it all (be a "pop" artist and give the finger to the man), he has much more respect from me than just a pop artist or just a punk rocker... some how straddling both of those for me is the ticket worth buying.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

RoundTheBend — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 01:43:04 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 01/31/2016 06:43

Gowi wrote:

@Seth:

Nirvana had a lot of influenced, but I always thought their noise punk trappings were always the primary sound to come out of their material. Like Molly's Lips seems like a song influenced by Buzzcocks and the like sure, but also has the trappings of the likes of Flipper, Scratch Acid, and others. But I suppose that is why Nirvana was as standout as they were: mixing their influences seamlessly yet having their own identity. They leaned to influences periodically but you always knew it was a Nirvana song whether it was more noise rock, more grunge scene, pop-influenced rock or whatever.

Ok so we are more or less on the same page. I suppose I lump them more into pop punk because of their punk but then Beatle influences... I mean they told Geffen records they wanted to be the biggest band ever... so maybe not ALWAYS pop in sound, but I think they wanted that bittersweet mix of true punk and true pop music (meaning music for the masses, not the genre). What's funny about that though is they were against corporate rock/"the masses"... so using some terms as thy are normally understood just don't make sense when talking about Nirvana... but you probably KNOW better than me... I can only say what I say from my experiences.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

benpaco — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 01:02:10 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 01/31/2016 06:02

Gowi wrote:

benpaco wrote:

I really thought we were talking about the original version of Molly's Lips not Nirvana's cover and was even more confused.

Anyways, Gowi's stuff is always a good resource and really different than this but shameless plug for this starter pack:

Like Pizza, Hate Home, Miss Girl - History of Pop Punk by benpaco

You know my list is better, right? SHORT BUT SWEET. Jokes aside, I do have issues with the later pages of your list for my personal preferences but it is a good catalog nonetheless.

Dude I honestly had not seen this and there's some stuff I'll have to check on there. Nice to see the hi-fives, they make up 1/3 of the dennery bands (the others being Sweet Baby and Bomb Bassets). As to everything on my chart from about ... 2005-present, it's a bit hit or miss as to whether it's a thing I enjoy, such as hotelier or the new mayday, or if it shaped the scene, such as wonder years or fob.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

xhitmanx — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:43:37 GMT

Author: xhitmanx

Posted: 01/31/2016 05:43

One of the first albums I liked. Of all the Green Day albums, Dookie and American Idiot hold up, and I can do without the rest.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

mickilennial — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:22:43 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 01/31/2016 01:22

benpaco wrote:

You know my list is better, right? SHORT BUT SWEET. Jokes aside, I do have issues with the later pages of your list for my personal preferences but it is a good catalog nonetheless.

Re: Album of the day (#1888): Dookie by Green Day

benpaco — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:19:17 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 01/31/2016 01:19

Gowi wrote:

Quote:

but listen to Molly's Lips and tell me that's not pop punk, but that's just me).

It's not.

Pop-Punk sounds like this:

This
This
This
This
This
This
This
and This