Best Ever Albums

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 16:17:41 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 03/31/2022 20:17

homelessking wrote:

Did you remove Space Streaking's 7-Toku ? I remember it being on your list

Hmmmm... Could've been... I don't think I've ever officially rated it though so more likely it was in a "sub-section" of "to be rated later" or similarly titled? ...Perhaps it was on one of the "genre" lists at some point, but maybe I forgot to carry it over when I transferred one version to the next into a new thread... Probably at least 7.5 though, very possibly 8.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

homelessking — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 04:18:48 GMT

Author: homelessking

Posted: 03/31/2022 08:18

Did you remove Space Streaking's 7-Toku ? I remember it being on your list

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

DommeDamian — Mon, 14 Mar 2022 09:28:58 GMT

Author: DommeDamian

Posted: 03/14/2022 13:28

AfterHours wrote:

Thanks Domme, I'm heavily focused on cinema for the time being (doesn't mean these queries are unwelcome! Just that I'm not really spending time thinking about, evaluating music at the moment). I'll say some...

Re: Yerself ... There is much psychological content in not just the vocals (on the edge of bliss and a psychotic break) but also the wild and vigorous instrumentation, most prominently the wildly colorful, delirious, ruptured, violent, nightmarish and sometimes panoramic vistas of the evocative and monstrous guitar playing, which runs the gamut of states of mind from the very debased and psychotic to epic nirvana or the transcendental ("nirvana" the state, not the band). Combined with the surreal, fractured, neurosis/psychosis in the vocals, this has a sickly tension and (in climaxes) an otherworldly wide-eyed visionary explosion to it, of both a psychedelic "happiness" and as if delving (as I think Scaruffi has said) into a precarious, unstable mind akin to that of a serial killer falling apart, his reality bursting at the seams.

Re: Piper and Yerself ... Essentially expressing similar states of psychedelia. Yerself, while in part inspired by Piper (especially Astronomy Domine and Interstellar Overdrive), including its often "spacey" and psychedelic effects throughout its songs, yet takes on a much more epic fusion (especially, guitar) and more striking and ferociously demented psychological conflict across its series of tracks. Particularly its last three major tracks, which features 3 consecutive monstrous "trips", reflective, teetering towards both a hopeful beautification and deathly swallow, and perhaps even what could be called a delusional "nirvana", both beyond reality and into the depths of psychosis -- all three match or approach the quality of Piper's very best (Interstellar Overdrive), with the frantic, insane, "death scene" delirium of Very Sleepy Rivers being among the greatest tracks of the 90s.

Re: Underwater ... I don't really have anything to add beyond Scaruffi on this one. Plus, would need to re-familiarize myself with it. But one key point is that they are intentionally "re-creating" the "sound" of the 60s, reviving it in both "spirit" and in a resurrection of its sound world (including its lower-fidelity, its less artificial guitar sound, its choruses, and so on, but with more sickly, lysergic, demonic (guitar) expression most closely resembling early Floyd/Syd Barrett). The anthems and sudden bursts of chorus are not just formal advances in the songs, but sonic "resurrections" tethered between the song taking place (or that previously took place) and into an eruption into psychedelia (and resurrection of a different time).

Thank you AH. The little review/description of YIS was what I needed. I think Imma listen to it again today.
As of the comparison to Piper, I also agree that it feels more epic in sound and structure, but subjectively I think Piper is much more unpredictable and trippy (that's what I'm looking for in pure psychedelia), and objectively YIS doesn't have a 10th of the same influence as Piper.
I noticed you have rated/ranked Underwater Moonlight much lower than Scaruffi, and although I think his description/review of it is dope (I even translated it), I was curious as if you had anything to add. Luckily, imo you had. 😁
"they are intentionally "re-creating" the "sound" of the 60s, reviving it in both "spirit" and in a resurrection of its sound world (including its lower-fidelity, its less artificial guitar sound, its choruses, and so on, but with more sickly, lysergic, demonic (guitar) expression most closely resembling early Floyd/Syd Barrett)." - sums it up really.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Sun, 13 Mar 2022 17:04:17 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 03/13/2022 21:04

DommeDamian wrote:

I'm thinking of making Yerself Is Steam and Underwater Moonlight my summer albums of the year, thoughts on these albums? And why do you and Scaruffi feel/think that first mentioned is better than Piper At The Gates of Dawn?

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

DommeDamian — Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:13:46 GMT

Author: DommeDamian

Posted: 03/13/2022 00:13

I'm thinking of making Yerself Is Steam and Underwater Moonlight my summer albums of the year, thoughts on these albums? And why do you and Scaruffi feel/think that first mentioned is better than Piper At The Gates of Dawn?

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Fri, 11 Feb 2022 20:47:02 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 02/12/2022 01:47

geologist wrote:

No problem, take your time with checking it out. I don't think I would've been so quick with it if it wasn't huge on Rate Your Music right now. It lives up to expectations for sure. It also complements the two Brave Little Abacus albums well, so it'd be a fun idea to go through them all whenever you're in the mood for rock music.

Thanks again, geologist. I've listened to it twice so far and it seems like around a high-6 or 6.5 to me, even though I can see why it could deserve a higher rating (clearly a very talented band, equally indebted to precursors like Slint as they seem to also echo artists like Bright Eyes, as well as Arcade Fire, Sufjan Stevens, Microphones, and other indie acts). Your description was spot on, I just think the best works of the artist's it resurrects were more potent and profound emotionally and creatively. I'm undecided on the best tracks but they might be Good Will Hunting, Snow Globes and Basketball Shoes. Expressively it seems (somewhat, partially) "faux" profound to me, not that it doesn't also have several great moments. Because of this I felt it had diminishing returns after peaking on the first listen (where I might have rated it 7 or so). Again it's only 2 listens, so maybe it will grow to a better rating at some point in the future, even if (approx a 6.4) or so seems right to me at this time. And I wouldn't be particularly surprised if Scaruffi gives it a better rating than I do. I tend to be less accurate with him on decades that I am farther behind on and therefore less in-depth with my view of what happened musically that was significant/creative beyond the most obvious ones that I've listed (like a chunk of the 2010s and 2020-2022).

Please feel free to provide more recs in the future, regardless to what degree I agree or disagree on their merits. I especially appreciate the added insights that help state your case (again, even if I don't quite think as highly of the work, such insights are valuable, useful, worth considering, etc). I'll have to get around to that 7.5 you recommended earlier (well in advance of Scaruffi!).

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

geologist — Sun, 6 Feb 2022 21:52:06 GMT

Author: geologist

Posted: 02/07/2022 02:52

No problem, take your time with checking it out. I don't think I would've been so quick with it if it wasn't huge on Rate Your Music right now. It lives up to expectations for sure. It also complements the two Brave Little Abacus albums well, so it'd be a fun idea to go through them all whenever you're in the mood for rock music.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Sun, 6 Feb 2022 15:52:26 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 02/06/2022 20:52

geologist wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

geologist wrote:

Once you get tired of all that Taylor Swift, you should check out the new Squid album "Bright Green Field". Really been enjoying it, it's a British post-punk album. Definitely draws comparison to Talking Heads, but also has clear inspiration from post-rock and krautrock.
I'm also curious if you've ever listened to the Math Rock band "The Brave Little Abacus", as I think their music is some of the most creative and cathartic of the 21st century.

Don't know if you're interested in listening to new music right now, but I'll give an update:
Squid album got a 7.5! https://www.scaruffi.com/vol8/squid.html
Black Country, New Road also just released "Ants From Up There", which is one of the few unique takes on rock music in a loooong time.

Thanks geologist! I'll try and check those out after I've revisited Maestro Swift's oeuvre a few more times over! (kidding about that last part 🤣 )

How does Ants From Up There compare to their debut?

The overall mood of both albums are very different. The post-punk anxiety and angularity of their debut is still there, but it's balanced by a new-found sentimentality. They've made a pivot to chamber pop that keeps the post-rock buildups. I've seen comparisons to Arcade Fire's Funeral and Sufjan Steven's Illinois, along with post-minimalism. In my opinion it's a much more fully realized version of their sound. Their debut was to me just a vessel for Sunglasses, and an inferior version of Sunglasses at that. Ants From Up There is far more creative and vivid. Although, they do keep a few old habits, possibly weaknesses. First, their love for jarring multipart songs without clear transitions, as with closer Basketball Shoes. Second, their tendency to push everything toward a climax at the last minute. Third, their occasionally (intentionally?) awkward and quivering vocals.

They execute much better on this album though, and the sound palette is richer and more expressive. There are plenty of highlights: The bittersweet, twinkling rise and fall of "Concorde", balancing minimalist drones with tender melodies. And the vulnerable two-parter Bread Song, with its sentimental swells nervously quivering, and then locking into focus once the drums come in. Good Will Hunting's hesitant rhythmic switches and massive final chorus makes for yet another perfect emotional crescendo, predictable but honestly impossible to hate. The last three songs are epics, 7 minutes, 9 minutes, and 12 minutes respectively. Again, it's this contrast that I love, between the paranoid, nervous energy and the patient sentimentality. The Place Where He Inserted the Blade is impossibly warm and lovely for a band like this to be putting out. The delicate humming of Snow Globes continues as a grotesque drum solo arrives. The drum solo doesn't displace the song, but overlaps it, a bizzare form of claustrophobia. Basketball Shoes is their best song. It's a summation of the album, a triptych of brooding melancholy, then a brief self-destructive sprint, ending in pure catharsis. So yeah, listen to it.

Thank you for your insights -- these details are much appreciated. Definitely got me more curious about it now. I don't often seek out albums before Scaruffi rates them like I used to around 2005-2010 (which was, consequently, an early point that I "proved" to myself that my ratings were often the same or very close to his even beforehand -- roughly 75-80% of the time -- not just after the fact). No longer doing so is mainly out of time consideration: I let him find most/all of the best ones so I can go straight to those and don't have to waste my time with the lower ratings in trying to do the same thing first (sorry Scaruffi! 🤣 ). Once I started going through and rating/ranking paintings and had built my film list a bit more (plus revisits of all this), seeking out albums ahead of time dropped out almost completely (with occasional exceptions in a given year). But maybe I will return to doing so if I ever catch up to the current year(s) before he does.

HOWEVER I do make exceptions and in this case I may see if I can get to it soon (of course, I say that and yet I'll probably see him rate it just before I get to it haha). Again, thank you for the recommendation and telling me several pertinent insights about this work.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

geologist — Sat, 5 Feb 2022 22:18:55 GMT

Author: geologist

Posted: 02/06/2022 03:18

AfterHours wrote:

geologist wrote:

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Sat, 5 Feb 2022 14:28:58 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 02/05/2022 19:28

geologist wrote:

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

geologist — Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:31:48 GMT

Author: geologist

Posted: 02/04/2022 21:31

geologist wrote:

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 15:33:06 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 01/25/2022 20:33

Mercury wrote:

hey afterhours, i wanted to crash this party briefly and say that from time to time I check on this masterclass of music discussion and I think i can get5 in and out quick and end up reading and reading... and reading and its all great stuff. So, thanks for this.

I was curious if you ever dived into metal of various kinds? I don't see any metal albums sticking out here, and was mostly checking to see if some albums that I find to be masterpieces and artistic high points (Neurosis' Through Silver In Blood, or more abstract stuff like Gorguts' Obscura) were here or mentioned. Is metal not particularly your thing or of interest to you?

The best and most brilliant metal of any kind albums are for me at this time
Reign In Blood by Slayer
Through Silver In Blood by Neurosis
Leviathan by Mastodon
Prowler In The Yard by Pig Destroyer
Everything Is Fire by Ulcerate
Dead As Dreams by Weakling

These also largely seem like albums you may be fascinated and moved and impressed by. (although Pig Destroyer is grindcore and I think of it as less intellectual perhaps but more primal and more in line with my love of hardcore punk.)

Thank you Mercury! You're always welcome to jump in at any point on any of my lists/diaries. I do not mean them to be exclusive to the usual users I discuss with (a handful of which also go back years to a previous site, listology). And they also aren't exclusive to whatever discussion is or last took place. But really, for anyone, for any sincere recommendations, questions, discussion (even if disagreeable). And if in disagreement, hopefully civil, respectful, with a purpose towards arriving at increased understanding even if there may be some bumps in the road while getting there (and even if I hypocritically admit to forgetting this on a few occasions! 🤡 ).

Metal definitely has its place and you should see its voice on my list even if it's maybe not enough of one for someone who's listened to more of the genre like yourself. It's also a point that the more updated 7.3 and above portion of the list is spread out across so many genres/subgenres that one is unlikely to dominate.

I wholeheartedly agree that Neurosis' Through Silver in Blood is among the masterpieces of metal and should definitely be on there around 8.1-8.2. If not, that would mean I inadvertently removed it during a refresh and transfer of my original doc onto BEA. So I'll double check that and make sure it's correctly placed!

I used to rank Reign of Blood higher and wouldnt surprise me if I upgrade it again. Currently it's in the 6.8-7.2 range (used to be in the 7.5s fwiw).

Don't recall if I've heard your others except probably Mastadon. But I will consider those recs and will check them out when I am honing in on updating Metal. It looks like you're highlighting this on your own diary, which I'll check out as well.

I have genre lists, including a Metal and Hard Rock one, that I STARTED putting together -- and will get back to -- here: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=573857#573857

(there are a number that still need to be added, and it may not be as updated as my overall "greatest" -- and again -- it's also combined with "hard rock", but it's a start...)

One other thing: Although I keep a tab open for quick access to BEA throughout most days, I am not actually ON the site for usually more than a few short times here and there to reply or make a quick update or two, over a given day. So, I can be kinda rushed and somewhat haphazard in response at times (maybe most of the time haha). So just try not to confuse that as "abrasiveness". It occasionally really is that I am legitimately annoyed in reply to someone and making that known, but in most cases (by far the majority) I am not and just hurried. The point being, I am more welcoming of feedback, discussion, recommendations than sometimes it might seem. I'm pointing this out because those who I've been discussing with consistently for years usually understand this while others may not. In short, you're welcome to discuss at any time.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

Mercury — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:27:26 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 01/25/2022 19:27

hey afterhours, i wanted to crash this party briefly and say that from time to time I check on this masterclass of music discussion and I think i can get5 in and out quick and end up reading and reading... and reading and its all great stuff. So, thanks for this.

I was curious if you ever dived into metal of various kinds? I don't see any metal albums sticking out here, and was mostly checking to see if some albums that I find to be masterpieces and artistic high points (Neurosis' Through Silver In Blood, or more abstract stuff like Gorguts' Obscura) were here or mentioned. Is metal not particularly your thing or of interest to you?

The best and most brilliant metal of any kind albums are for me at this time
Reign In Blood by Slayer
Through Silver In Blood by Neurosis
Leviathan by Mastodon
Prowler In The Yard by Pig Destroyer
Everything Is Fire by Ulcerate
Dead As Dreams by Weakling

These also largely seem like albums you may be fascinated and moved and impressed by. (although Pig Destroyer is grindcore and I think of it as less intellectual perhaps but more primal and more in line with my love of hardcore punk.)

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Sat, 13 Nov 2021 05:08:07 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/13/2021 10:08

Carl21 wrote:

Nah, actually I think it's probably because I was reminded of something I've read about, either in this thread or somewhere else, called "Challenge Rating". It's about how much time and effort it takes to get into a certain work of art, so I brought up this point. I think that would be a good feature to add to a best of list to help the viewer determine which they should try first or in a busy day and which they should give spare time and effort.

_______
Music From Around The World: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=24820

I probably will add it at some point. Currently, there is an incomplete/in-progress version if you scroll down far enough on my criteria page.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

Carl21 — Sat, 13 Nov 2021 03:39:39 GMT

Author: Carl21

Posted: 11/13/2021 08:39

Nah, actually I think it's probably because I was reminded of something I've read about, either in this thread or somewhere else, called "Challenge Rating". It's about how much time and effort it takes to get into a certain work of art, so I brought up this point. I think that would be a good feature to add to a best of list to help the viewer determine which they should try first or in a busy day and which they should give spare time and effort.

_______
Music From Around The World: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/v...hp?t=24820

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 02:24:24 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/12/2021 07:24

@Carl

I wasn't talking about "you" re: accessibility being the main factor, and how I thought it was "idiotic". I was simply clarifying for anyone that might read that "literally" instead of as an expression (not an actual attack on intelligence).

Re: supposedly limited perspective ... Honestly, you may just need to look at my lists a bit more closely. This is obviously not true as they could hardly be any more varied while still maintaining uniform standards. Pretty much every genre is represented by its highest efforts across the selections of 7.8 and above, or if you want to go further than that, 7.3+ (not just Rock, but Jazz, Film ... and to some extent with 7.8+ Classical and the 7.3+ Paintings too, but those two are very incomplete). Seriously, it's actually hard to find one, or even a type of emotional expression, that isn't represented among the higher rankings of those lists.

Fwiw re: accessibility, you will find many of the greatest examples at/near the top of each of those same lists -- artists that both approached a "universality", and among the highest, most singular expression of art simultaneously (such as Beethoven, Mozart, Michelangelo, Leonardo Da Vinci, The Doors, Bob Dylan, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Orson Welles, Alfred Hitchcock...). In other words, they found an ideal or near-ideal medium between "accessible" or "universal" and not compromising their artistic vision.

In short: for every "Tago Mago", or "Variations in Dream-time" there's also "The Four Seasons" or "Original Sin" rated pretty much the same... At every major echelon of the scale (ex: 7.3-7.7; 7.8-8.2; 8.3-8.7; 8.8-9.2; 9.3+...) there are "accessible" or "universal" works and more "obscure" or "experimental" ones, intermixed with each other, so it's just kind of funny to bring up as an "issue" (if that was your intent?) when it's all right there.

Obviously if one is going to claim he/she is listing "the greatest" in ordered scale, than that is the perspective and comparison from which to work from. So if you disagree with that strict approach, than I can't help you with that -- it is kind of the point of the list itself, of the order, in attempting rate/rank all those works accurately ...or maybe just meant you were surprised I would maintain the discipline of it (I can't tell which you meant). But I enjoy everything 6.8 and above always, every attentive listen/viewing (increasingly so the higher the rating, and increasingly well above mere entertainment into much greater, more impacting and profound experiences as one reaches higher and higher rated works). And even from 4.8 to 6.7 -- the 5s and 5.5s more so if I am only listening/viewing works in that sphere or not too far above them (in other words a 5 or 5.5 will seem especially lacking if I have just been listening to, say, a bunch of 8s or 9s or something, but will tend to be solid, mildly impacting and entertaining if amidst listening to a bunch of 6s or works that aren't too far above it, etc). Frankly, even from 3.0-4.7 has enjoyment factor in this regard (and in a very very mild sense, 2.6-2.9, though starting below 5 and as we get closer to 2.5 it is increasingly and totally lost).

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

Carl21 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 01:12:38 GMT

Author: Carl21

Posted: 11/12/2021 06:12

AfterHours wrote:

@Carl

Partial Edit re "idiotic to impose accessibility"...

Perhaps this could be a bit harsh. I mean "idiotic" more as an expression than literally so. On one hand, it is perfectly fine to me if someone likes music or other art more when it is accessible. Its not a criterion I would agree with (because it is so limiting towards creativity) but obviously someone is totally free to evaluate based off that. I just don't think it should be imposed on artists (meaning, practically all great ones) that are advancing the form, experimenting, developing their art, challenging the imagination, challenging the intellect, and so on, where one might actually have to think a little bit outside the box (so to speak) to come to grips with what they're doing. So, maybe "accessibility" could be a factor in a limited sphere of pop music or if one is rating/ranking by "how closely a work captures pop culture" or rates based on "how many hits this album has" (or something), but it is self-defeating in relation to the fundamental and greater purposes of art as a whole. One should first try and understand where the artist is coming from and this would ideally include a familiarity with the genre(s) their developing off of or from and, especially when far removed from one's own time period, one should gain an adequate familiarity with the key or "adjacent" works from the historical period of their art. Otherwise, you're unlikely to be a part of the audience that artist and their work was even intended for. And to blame that artist for not being "accessible enough for you" (or similar complaints) without you having even made yourself a part of their audience beforehand, can be a pretty unfair and even ridiculous position to take.

No offence taken, but I'm just astonished that you only take things from the perspective of the best, which is fine by me, but shouldn't be necessarily the case with any music reviewer. Objectively deciding on the best doesn't happen in a glimpse of an eye as we talked earlier. Finding the best and deciding that takes time; I don't think I can decide myself unless I have years of experience in the genre and I wouldn't suggest the best for any new listener cuz that would spoil or ruin the enjoyment of hundreds of other fairly good works out there. There's a difference between the best and the favorite. I might try to be strict when I'm asked to judge as objectively as possible, but I can be myself when I listen to music. Just because "Trout Mask Replica" is a great album that people should listen to it everyday! Probably they won't be in the mood for it all the time despite the amazing satire and some catchy tunes in it. Any music fan listens to great music that is accessible and enjoyable for most of the time; the rest of great music can be left for certain occasions and certain moods. That's why I think there should be a separate list for the elite or serious listeners.

_________
Music From Around The World: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24820

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

Carl21 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 00:47:13 GMT

Author: Carl21

Posted: 11/12/2021 05:47

AfterHours wrote:

No, at least not in any substantial way.

Because this, almost automatically, pigeon holes the requirements of a work to only meet what the listener/viewer has already experienced, and not step outside this to include what the artist knows and has experienced. To impose that on the artist is an idiotic requirement the more you think about it, and actually defeats a major point of art, which is creativity, advancing the form, expressing one self, and so forth. So if the listener/viewer is unable or unwilling to follow art in this way (making some effort in following its advancements, its creativity, meeting the artist's/work's intentions as best he/she can...) then they're fundamentally not really in tune with what's going on and ultimately not even really observing and evaluating the work itself, but limiting it to their own pre-conceived "accessibility" requirement.

That doesn't mean I don't think an artist should have a strong ability to convey his/her ideas through the work, or think one should be "obscure for obscurities' sake". But one's reception of a work that is crossing particularly unfamiliar ground or that is "obscure/experimental" is often far more dependent on their own knowledge or familiarity with the genre or art movement or whatever type of creativity is on display, than any other factors. If the listener/viewer isn't themselves prepared for that to some degree, then they probably aren't part of the audience the artist was communicating to with that work, and I think it is very questionable for said listener/viewer to evaluate/rate/rank such a work if that is not first resolved. In other words, they should make themselves, to some degree or more, "a part of the artist's/work's audience" instead of giving a serious eval/rating/ranking prior to this, or "blaming their lack of connection to the work on the artist" (it is at least a two-way deal).

I think an ideal balance of what should be "required" in this regard is taken up (fundamentally, generally, from which much could be extrapolated...) on my criteria page:

"Of utmost importance is that creativity is significant largely in alignment and proportional to its purpose and contribution to the emotional or conceptual expression of the work. Without such an alignment and purpose, an artist may be coming up with something no one has heard or seen before, but the result would tend to be aimless or insignificant."

I dunno why you seem to be very strict and only considering things from the point of Beethoven, Wagner, John Coltrane, Captain Beefheart, Velvet Underground i.e. the ones you think highly of as if the rest of the world doesn't exist. I think there are a lot of choices outside their works, probably all the choices are outside them, so why twist the criteria to fit the elite and marginalize the rest?

I never meant by "accessible" to be creatively-limited. I said you can be creative and "not sound weird to the ear." Not sounding weird means sounding harmonic, easy to follow up, sometimes up beat and catchy; having some enjoyment isn't a sin! Classical music is probably fairly accessible now except the avant-garde. Almost everything from Mozart, whether symphonies, piano concertos or string quartets, is easy to get into and follow up. Beethoven wasn't very inaccessible for the majority of his works. Jazz can be a bit weird, but not all the time. Almost all popular Rock is accessible; the only inaccessible part of it, probably not very inaccessible depending on the person, are few ones suggested by Scaruffi.

The idea I was having in mind is to point out the easier and more accessible works first cuz most people would like something to catch on quickly. A more refined version of the list can be compiled for serious audience as a separate feature since it only draws a minority of listeners.

_________
Music From Around The World: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24820

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:27:52 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/11/2021 20:27

@Carl

Partial Edit re "idiotic to impose accessibility"...

Perhaps this could be a bit harsh. I mean "idiotic" more as an expression than literally so. On one hand, it is perfectly fine to me if someone likes music or other art more when it is accessible. Its not a criterion I would agree with (because it is so limiting towards creativity) but obviously someone is totally free to evaluate based off that. I just don't think it should be imposed on artists (meaning, practically all great ones) that are advancing the form, experimenting, developing their art, challenging the imagination, challenging the intellect, and so on, where one might actually have to think a little bit outside the box (so to speak) to come to grips with what they're doing. So, maybe "accessibility" could be a factor in a limited sphere of pop music or if one is rating/ranking by "how closely a work captures pop culture" or rates based on "how many hits this album has" (or something), but it is self-defeating in relation to the fundamental and greater purposes of art as a whole. One should first try and understand where the artist is coming from and this would ideally include a familiarity with the genre(s) their developing off of or from and, especially when far removed from one's own time period, one should gain an adequate familiarity with the key or "adjacent" works from the historical period of their art. Otherwise, you're unlikely to be a part of the audience that artist and their work was even intended for. And to blame that artist for not being "accessible enough for you" (or similar complaints) without you having even made yourself a part of their audience beforehand, can be a pretty unfair and even ridiculous position to take.

Re: Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

AfterHours — Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:00:58 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/10/2021 20:00

Carl21 wrote:

That being said, do you think "Accessibility" (that some people focus on) should be part of a rating system? I mean being able to bring high quality along with immediate recognition is something important; sometimes you can be very creative, but not very weird to the ear at the same time (Mozart). However, I think it's really hard to judge accessibility since it's something personal and relates to the person's background and knowledge.