Best Ever Albums

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

RoundTheBend — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:24:11 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 09/13/2017 23:24

Tap wrote:

this guy

Interesting.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:52:48 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/13/2017 20:52

craola wrote:

1. evan parker... i don't believe i've ever listened to his work. where to start??
B. you'd class solo violin improvisations as jazz??
III. i agree about davis, though i'm not sure what mange means in this context.

1. If you like Talk Talk, you would probably like Spring Heel Jack's '00s recordings; particularly The Sweetness of the Water, which he features on. I have a feeling you would like the atmosphere and use of space on Ericle of Dolphi and in Evan Parker's Electroacoustic Ensemble series on ECM, particularly, Memory/Vision. For anyone though, as a general starting point, I would suggest Atlanta, a live-recorded trio with Barry Guy and Paul Lytton - who are very familiar with improvising with each other - that showcases a decent range of each player's talent. An essential aspect of Evan Parker's body of work is his solo work, and Atlanta features a blistering, complex, non-stop, technical, 20 minute solo which is really characteristic of his solo work; if you enjoy that, then you could move on to Six of One et al. If you find that the trio format is very comfortable, and looking for a similar feel, Topography of the Lungs is a nice next step. If you want more communication between players, then you could shrink it down to a duo format, like From Trombone and Saxophone, Chirps, or Clapham Duos, Leaps in Leicester et al. depending on what instrument or player you want to hear him communicate with. If you want something a little more hey day free jazzy with more voices in the quartet/quintet range then there's Saxophone Special as a nice next step. And if somehow there's too much space for you on Atlanta, then he's on Machine Gun. Long story short, I think that if someone starts with Atlanta, thinks about what they liked, and thinks about what they want more of, then it's a good diving board for other stuff.

B. It's been awhile since I read or thought about these things, but I tend to be fine with Andrew Kania's classification of music in to "classical" (score-based), "jazz" (performance-based), and "rock" (recording-based). Of course, the lines are still blurred between these kinds (what are Grateful Dead? Duke Ellington's scored works?), but it's about as neat and tidy as I have found. I don't want to argue it thoroughly, but hopefully it's not ridiculous to assume that improvisation is performance-dependent, and thus I lump it in to "jazz." Realistically though, a listener coming from a jazz background is more likely to understand free or non-idiomatic improvisation than a listener coming from literally any other musical background. And free or non-idiomatic improvisation historically comes from the jazz culture. IDK, there's a lot of things going on, but I don't think it's farfetched to call it jazz unless you're a snooty neoclassicist. If you want to read more about Kania's classification, he has a handful of papers on the metaphysics of music.

III. autocorrected

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Fischman — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:46:07 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 09/13/2017 20:46

I decided to pull my five faves from each and see how they stack up

1. A Love Supreme - Coltrane
2. In a Silent Way -Davis
3. Blue Train - Coltrane
4. Jack Johnson - Davis
5. Ascension - Coltrane
6. Agharta - Davis
7. Pithecanthropus Erectus - Mingus
8. 'On the Corner - Davis
9. My Favorite Things - Coltrane
10. Mingus Ah Um - Mingus
11. 'Round About Midnight - Davis
12. the Black Saint and the Sinner Lady - Mingus
13. Dynasty - Mingus
14. Giant Steps - Coltrane
15. Let My Children Hear Music - Mingus

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

SleepDealer — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:13:30 GMT

Author: SleepDealer

Posted: 09/13/2017 20:13

I have recently acquired several albums by all three but don't feel I have an instinctive answer to the question yet. Abstaining.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:47:51 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/13/2017 18:47

Mercury wrote:

Journey In Satchidananda by Alice Coltrane

I've been meaning to check this out for some time. I probably should and will. I love Pharoah's Karma and I've been wanting to hear some of Alice's work too.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

craola — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:06:10 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 09/13/2017 17:06

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:

I listen to Mingus the most, spinning Black Saint, The Clown, and Pithecanthropus Erectus the most. As has been mentioned, Mingus' compositional skill is among the best in jazz and the best among these three. I listen to John Coltrane the next most, particularly Love Supreme, Meditations, and Ascension. Coltrane is the best player and improviser among these three; I've heard from various accounts, and often personally from the players, that Coltrane (along with Ayler) is the primary inspiration for other innovators like Evan Parker, Steve Lacy, Peter Brötzmann, Ken Vandermark, etc. Davis is nice; his discog is diverse, well composed, and well played, but there's something that doesn't strike me like the other two. I listen to In A Silent Way, Live Evil, and Bitches Brew the most.

My favorite jazz performer is definitely Evan Parker. The first five jazz albums from my overall (which is at least half "jazz" 😉 😉 ) are Anatomie des clefs, Black Saint, Spiritual Unity, Spirits Rejoice, and Solo Violin Improvisations.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

baystateoftheart — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:03:23 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 09/13/2017 17:03

I've only scratched the surface of each of their discographies. So comparing each of their best records to my knowledge (instead of overall career), I'd go with Coltrane for A Love Supreme. It's definitely my favorite jazz album.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:01:56 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/13/2017 17:01

I listen to Mingus the most, spinning Black Saint, The Clown, and Pithecanthropus Erectus the most. As has been mentioned, Mingus' compositional skill is among the best in jazz and the best among these three. I listen to John Coltrane the next most, particularly Love Supreme, Meditations, and Ascension. Coltrane is the best player and improviser among these three; I've heard from various accounts, and often personally from the players, that Coltrane (along with Ayler) is the primary inspiration for other innovators like Evan Parker, Steve Lacy, Peter Brötzmann, Ken Vandermark, etc. Davis is nice; his discog is diverse, well composed, and well played, but there's something that doesn't strike me like the other two. I listen to In A Silent Way, Live Evil, and Bitches Brew the most.

My favorite jazz performer is definitely Evan Parker. The first five jazz albums from my overall (which is at least half "jazz" 😉 😉 ) are Anatomie des clefs, Black Saint, Spiritual Unity, Spirits Rejoice, and Solo Violin Improvisations.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

AAL2014 — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:35:55 GMT

Author: AAL2014

Posted: 09/13/2017 16:35

And Mingus takes the lead. I love this thread, very insightful and engaging. I'm currently on a jazz kick because of it. Thanks, friends.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Norman Bates — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:32:05 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 09/13/2017 16:32

Of these, Mingus; overall though...

The Shape Of Jazz To Come by Ornette Coleman

Ornette ffs

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Mercury — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:56:50 GMT

Author: Mercury

Posted: 09/13/2017 15:56

I'd rank them all incredibly high in my favorite artists list. But Miles is number 1 or 1a on it.

1. Miles Davis
2. John Coltrane
2a. Mingus

As for my favorite 5 or 10 jazz albums,...

Kind Of Blue by Miles Davis

A Love Supreme by John Coltrane

Journey In Satchidananda by Alice Coltrane

In A Silent Way by Miles Davis

The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady by Charles Mingus

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

AAL2014 — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 11:17:52 GMT

Author: AAL2014

Posted: 09/13/2017 15:17

Fischman wrote:

AAL2014 wrote:

Fischman wrote:

Not sure I can answer--choosing between Miles and 'Trane is tough. Neither is my favorite, not both rank very high and neither stands head and shoulders above the other. Miles at his best is trancemdant. But he also can be boring at times and genuinely jumped the shark late in his career. Trane was also trancendant at his best and more consistent overall so I lean his way. For me, Mingus is awesome, bit I don't see him comparing to the other two.

My Jazz top 5

1. ArtBlakey and the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
2. Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder
3. The Wynton Kelly Trio with Wes Montgomery - Smokin' at the Half Note
4. John Coltrane - A Love Supreme
5. Miles Davis - In a Silent Way

Wonderful top 5 Fischman. Art Blakey's Moanin' is one of my favorites too.

One thing to say purely based off of my own feelings when listening to records featuring both Miles and Coltrane.. Even on albums like fucking Kind of Blue I feel Coltrane's part not only hold their own in Miles' arrangement but some times stand out more to me. That goes with me already admitting to Coltrane being the one I connect with most though.

I would actually take it a step further based on my experience with Kind of Blue, which is probably unique.

When I started getting into Jazz, of course KOB was a frequently mentioned entry point and so I went for it. At the time, I didn't care much for sax in general (my ear didn't take to all those goose honking sounds), but I loved trumpet. So here's an album by supposedly the greatest figure in jazz, and he actually happens to play trumpet--what could be better? But then a funny thing happened when I listened to the album; I found myself captivated by 'Trane's work on the album and really pretty lukewarm about Miles'. KOB actually became my gateway drug to loving jazz sax, thanks to 'Trane. I would have to discover the likes of Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan before I really went bonkers over jazz trumpet.

On a side note, to this day, I have developed great respect for Miles, mostly as a composer and leader, but even then, my favorite Miles work is later, and KOB sits well back of the likes of In a Silent Way, Jack Johnson, Nefertiti, On the Corer, Agharta, etc.

Cool to know I'm not the only one who loves hearing Coltrane on Miles' work haha. I listened to Kind of Blue again last night and something about Coltrane's parts caught my ear immediately, often times they would be the driving force in bringing my attention back to the music completely.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Fischman — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:28:22 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 09/13/2017 14:28

AAL2014 wrote:

Fischman wrote:

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

AAL2014 — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 02:54:09 GMT

Author: AAL2014

Posted: 09/13/2017 06:54

Fischman wrote:

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

craola — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 02:02:18 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 09/13/2017 06:02

with tbsatsl and lmchm, there's something about what Mingus accomplished that nobody else has ever even dreamed of creating. for that, he gets my vote.

i drop coltrane at #2. and davis, davis, davis. #3. i love davis though. davis was the first jazzer i really got into. my gateway drug. a few years ago, i'd have gone davis > coltrane > mingus, and i still love davis... so there's that.

all of these men were phenomenal, and i can't imagine what jazz would be without them. they reshaped everything.

top 5 10:

1 mingus: the black saint & the sinner lady
2 coltrane: a love supreme
3 mingus: let my children hear music
4 davis: in a silent way
5 ellington: far east suite
6 blakey: a night in tunisia
7 coltrane: blue train
8 coleman: the shape of jazz to come
9 weather report: heavy weather
10 diz 'n bird: diz 'n bird at carnegie hall

irrelevant to the discussion: i need to suss out the rest of my jazz list... i have a "top 100" that none a y'all can see, but the order gets so chaotic after #39 that i think it's just a random draw.

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Tap — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 01:53:11 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 09/13/2017 05:53

this guy

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

AfterHours — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 01:40:18 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 09/13/2017 05:40

Space-Dementia wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Charles Mingus, who is also the greatest composer in Jazz history, and possibly of all music post-1950.

My Top Jazz Albums - All Time:

1. The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
2. A Love Supreme - John Coltrane (1964)
3. Unit Structures - Cecil Taylor (1966)
4. Ascension - John Coltrane (1965)
5. Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971)
...
119. Blue Train - John Coltrane (1957)

Thank you so much. I know have over 100 new records to check out. Cheers!

No problem, it will be well worth your time 😄

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

RoundTheBend — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 01:29:06 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 09/13/2017 05:29

Charles Mingus.

As prolific as Miles Davis is and even as great as he is, there's just something about Charles' albums that I like better. I think they are more intriguing mentally and emotionally. But Miles is prolific and fantastic too. My personal fav is Mingus. Maybe cause he's a bassist? hehe

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Space-Dementia — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 00:20:17 GMT

Author: Space-Dementia

Posted: 09/13/2017 04:20

AfterHours wrote:

Thank you so much. I know have over 100 new records to check out. Cheers!

Re: John Coltrane, Miles Davis, or Charles Mingus?

Fischman — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 23:43:43 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 09/13/2017 03:43

Not sure I can answer--choosing between Miles and 'Trane is tough. Neither is my favorite, not both rank very high and neither stands head and shoulders above the other. Miles at his best is trancemdant. But he also can be boring at times and genuinely jumped the shark late in his career. Trane was also trancendant at his best and more consistent overall so I lean his way. For me, Mingus is awesome, bit I don't see him comparing to the other two.

My Jazz top 5

1. ArtBlakey and the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
2. Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder
3. The Wynton Kelly Trio with Wes Montgomery - Smokin' at the Half Note
4. John Coltrane - A Love Supreme
5. Miles Davis - In a Silent Way