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Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

Repo — Sat, 7 Oct 2017 10:33:58 GMT

Author: Repo

Posted: 10/07/2017 14:33

Muslim-Bigfoot wrote:

U.S. is the center of the world culturally, scientifically, technologically, in terms of entertainment and business-wise. Because of this, its population enjoys a whole host of opportunites, modern conveniences, and overall benefits. The cost of surgery for a broken metacarpal ( 🤣 ) in U.S. can be north of 15k $. One in 2 working American makes less than 30k a year and the chances of that same person not being able to afford healthcare is above 40%. I earn more than 30k and have never broken my metacarpal and I obviously (pffft) have healthcare; so this situation is obviously fairytale. I don't give two shits that is to say. Nothing wrong here, move along.

r u essentially saying that u occasionally like to throw a punch and not have to pay for it? 😜

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

Muslim-Bigfoot — Fri, 6 Oct 2017 22:21:53 GMT

Author: Muslim-Bigfoot

Posted: 10/07/2017 02:21

U.S. is the center of the world culturally, scientifically, technologically, in terms of entertainment and business-wise. Because of this, its population enjoys a whole host of opportunites, modern conveniences, and overall benefits. The cost of surgery for a broken metacarpal ( 🤣 ) in U.S. can be north of 15k $. One in 2 working American makes less than 30k a year and the chances of that same person not being able to afford healthcare is above 40%. I earn more than 30k and have never broken my metacarpal and I obviously (pffft) have healthcare; so this situation is obviously fairytale. I don't give two shits that is to say. Nothing wrong here, move along.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

Temporary33 — Fri, 6 Oct 2017 10:42:17 GMT

Author: Temporary33

Posted: 10/06/2017 14:42

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I always wonder, when people say "gun control isn't the answer," then what is?

I'm not necessarily for or against gun control nor have the same perspective as those who state that. I think the argument on gun control is fairly trivial and that the owners of media outlet and the insanely rich have everyone in the palms of their hands by making this a visceral argument as well as forcing the narrative on massacres instead of preventing violent crimes and etc. (because saying massacres is the easiest way to get people emotionally armed as well as point towards guns as the primary issue).

However, gun control probably isn't the only answer if it is an answer at all to the issue I'm more concerned with. Generally speaking, the number of crimes reduce as the standard of living increases. So, the most simple answer to this problem is increase the standard of living. Such as improving affordability and access to general necessities, improving the healthcare system and our general ability to take care of the mentally ill, improving the education system and its affordability, and etc.

Assuming everything reaches the optimal level, there'd be very little reason for things such as this to occur even if guns are present.

EDIT:

One more thing I suppose. The number of gun owners in the USA is massive. I'm not certain how pragmatic gun control (or the gun control I imagine people in this thread refer to) may be under this particular scenario regardless of how severe the laws decided on are.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RoundTheBend — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 23:07:44 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 10/05/2017 03:07

From the New York Times:
How a Conservative-Led Australia Ended Mass Killings
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/world/australia/australia-gun-ban-shooting.html

Also interesting and terrifying facts we don't always hear about.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics...aps-charts

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RoundTheBend — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 21:54:16 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 10/05/2017 01:54

RockyRaccoon wrote:

StreetSpirit wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

I always wonder, when people say "gun control isn't the answer," then what is?

Because I always hear people refute gun control arguments without offering solutions of their own. The answer can't be "well this is just the way it is," that's unacceptable.

This is a uniquely American problem, something that doesn't happen anywhere else in the developed world. There's loads of data that shows that more guns = more gun violence and that tighter gun laws = less gun violence, so why do we refuse to do something?

It completely baffles me.

Because our political leaders are actually puppets of business interests and organizations that actually govern our country. Mass shootings are terrible, but guns generate revenue. They're good for the economy, especially when any Joe Schmo can obtain one. Bullets are great for the economy too. The higher capacity of consumer guns, the more bullets can be sold...better for the economy. It's a business, dude. It's such a successful business that organizations, such as the NRA, can afford to lobby and donate to our political leaders, to ensure they won't take any political action in response to a mass shooting (unless the answer is more guns). I'm sorry dude but debating is pointless right now, because nothing will change any time soon.

That’s awfully cynical and heartless

While I get where you are coming from Rocky, the good citizens of this country have been debating gun control for 30 years or more.

I mean Charleton Heston's quote from my cold dead hands is probably just as well versed in the culture of Americans as Four Score and Seven Years Ago or ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

I hadn't seen this before, but he says, expecially from you Mr. Gore (assuming Al Gore), from my cold dead hands:

Link

When there's a whole massive part of the population who thinks this way... it really is a stale mate. There likely really will be no change.

And it is sickening and heartless and cynical, but the last 30 years has been exactly that. This is nothing new in America. It's not like 10k people died each year from gun violence and that just started happening...no. This has been going on for a very long time.

And people still don't give a shit - they want their toys and false sense of security. Simple fact. Those are the real reasons why we still have this problem. People who want their toys and false sense of security are throwing tantrums like they are in grade school. Sorry that's just how I see it.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

JOSweetHeart — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 20:40:06 GMT

Author: JOSweetHeart

Posted: 10/05/2017 00:40

StreetSpirit wrote:

So you're admitting guns are more dangerous than knives. But that wasn't my question, so I'll repeat it:

StreetSpirit wrote:

Please name me another weapon a common person can easily get a hold of that can kill/injure hundreds of people in a minute, because I can't think of one.

There isn't one, but what people can get a hold of can be used as lethal weapons too, like a vehicle to drive right through a protesting crowd for example.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. In other words, gun control is not the issue. Control of the people is what should be focused on more because they are who bring things like guns and vehicles to life.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RockyRaccoon — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 18:57:01 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 10/04/2017 22:57

StreetSpirit wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

That’s awfully cynical and heartless

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RoundTheBend — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 18:20:23 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 10/04/2017 22:20

StreetSpirit wrote:

RockyRaccoon wrote:

Both points are valid.

Seat belts made money. DUI's make money.

I suppose we need a solution that makes money. Cause that's America. We don't do anything unless there's profit (sure that's an exaggeration, but I'm speaking to the point that we usually don't do anything just because it is a good thing to do).

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

CA Dreamin — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:55:54 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 10/04/2017 18:55

RockyRaccoon wrote:

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RockyRaccoon — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:36:10 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 10/04/2017 18:36

I always wonder, when people say "gun control isn't the answer," then what is?

Because I always hear people refute gun control arguments without offering solutions of their own. The answer can't be "well this is just the way it is," that's unacceptable.

This is a uniquely American problem, something that doesn't happen anywhere else in the developed world. There's loads of data that shows that more guns = more gun violence and that tighter gun laws = less gun violence, so why do we refuse to do something?

It completely baffles me.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

boyd94 — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:29:43 GMT

Author: boyd94

Posted: 10/04/2017 18:29

Whatever your abstract ideals about guns and the Second Amendment, the fact that since 1970 the domestic 'militia' described therein has killed more Americans than all US overseas wars combined suggests that, in a strictly practical sense, it is not fit for purpose and urgently requires careful review.

The problem remains that guns are ubiquitous in America such that any analogy to, say, Australia goes out the window. The political will to accomplish the colossal feat of logistics and social engineering to convince the populace to willingly surrender their guns will simply never exist. If a plan were set in motion now, it might bear fruit in a generation or so. No organisation of any kind, least of all term-limited government administrations, is thinking that far ahead - just look at how we deal with climate change.

It appears that the best we can do at this point is talk in terms of gun licensing laws. As with vehicles, one should be required to undergo training and examination in the safe and responsible use of firearms. I feel like people opposed to such a proposal fall into a camp of ideologues or of enthusiasts and hobbyists so aptly caricatured by Jim Jefferies - "fuck you, I like guns" is indeed their best and most effective argument.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

CA Dreamin — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:19:58 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 10/04/2017 18:19

StreetSpirit wrote:

Please name me another weapon a common person can easily get a hold of that can kill/injure hundreds of people in a minute, because I can't think of one.

JOSweetHeart wrote:

...a knife can not fire off in a minute as much as a gun can...

So you're admitting guns are more dangerous than knives. But that wasn't my question, so I'll repeat it:

StreetSpirit wrote:

Please name me another weapon a common person can easily get a hold of that can kill/injure hundreds of people in a minute, because I can't think of one.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

JOSweetHeart — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 13:41:38 GMT

Author: JOSweetHeart

Posted: 10/04/2017 17:41

StreetSpirit wrote:

Please name me another weapon a common person can easily get a hold of that can kill/injure hundreds of people in a minute, because I can't think of one.

If a person is stabbed in a certain spot, a knife can be just as much as a problem as a gun can be. No, a knife can not fire off in a minute as much as a gun can, but even if just one life is taken by a knife, in my opinion, it is still one life too many.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. I heard it said that the shooter in Vegas had at least one bomb creating material in his possession too (I forget what it was exactly.) and let us not forget what was used in order to take out those who died on September 11th: planes.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

cestuneblague — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 10:33:04 GMT

Author: cestuneblague

Posted: 10/04/2017 14:33

Hayden wrote:

Car crashes have sold newspapers since day one. Unfortunately, it's definitely tenfold now.

What happened was a tragedy, but I truly don't know what to say. It's apparent what needs to be done to stop this sort of stuff, but Americans don't seem to want to solve the problem. So, yeah, this'll persist. The fact the States are still considered a first world country is beyond me.

At the root, sure.

Hayden, I don't know what your view from up north is, but all of america is not some dystopian hellhole (... at least yet). It's increasingly unequal, especially in terms of wealth gaps and the economic/educational oppurtunities for people in the different income ranges (and no to another, ahem, post, just because the poorest citizens here don't have it as bad as in some of the most impoverished countries doesn't mean they're "doing fine" by relativity), and our badly outdated infrustructure and yes amount of gun-related deaths is quite alarming, but no we're actually doing quite well especially in comparison to most post-recession economies in the western world... but we definitely have our many faults. And it's not helping when we have a "leader" who would gladly let part of this country go down in flames if they were to insult his tie.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

cestuneblague — Wed, 4 Oct 2017 10:25:11 GMT

Author: cestuneblague

Posted: 10/04/2017 14:25

We're never going to stop drunk-driving-related accidents in the country, but believe it or not there has been action taken up against it and there's a reason fatalies in result of intoxicated drivers have decreased. We can be tighter and stricter about how guns are purchased and the type of weapons that can be sold on the open (and stronger enforcement against the black) market, it won't completely end people getting killed by guns but if it can save a good number of lives that's something worth undertaking.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

junodog4 — Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:47:48 GMT

Author: junodog4

Posted: 10/04/2017 02:47

It's so shitty that this keeps happening, yet US politicians seem completely controlled by the gun-lobby.

Anyway, I said this in 2012, and I think it's still apt:

Quote:

I don't think after Aurora, the debate is about all guns in general. I think it's about automatic weapons. I for one think there's a lot of merit to restricting them. Lets go through the arguments against restricting them:

1. Right to bear arms - we've already discussed how this was about a different type of 'arm'. The forefathers of America were thinking muskets (and eventually rifles), not automatic weapons etc... They were a right of every man to protect his home and provide for his family in frontier America. Further, they were to be in the hands of a trained militia, to protect against foreign invaders. Not exactly a threat today.

2. Hunting - damn right. Legal hunting is great (as long as we're not talking poaching or hunting endangered species). Nothing more 'free range' than hunted game. Do you hunt with automatic weapons? Kinda takes the sport out of it. You hunt with rifles and shotguns. No need for automatic here.

3. Naples suggestion - sport shooting. It's a valid sport. Last I checked, skeet shooting was not done with automatic weapons. Again - kinda takes the sport out of it. Likewise, target shooting.

4. Pest control - for those who live in rural areas, farmers or ranchers, guns are a necessity to control gophers, coyotes, etc... Last I checked, a rancher protecting his calves doesn't use an uzi to ward off coyotes. No need for automatic here.

5. Home protection - if there arises a situation where a regular rifle, handgun, or shotgun doesn't suffice, I'm not sure an automatic weapon would improve your odds. If the 'bad guy' would still take you on if you had a rifle, it's an extreme situation, one an automatic weapon wouldn't improve. Interesting stat - having a gun at home actually increases your chances of getting shot (accidents, domestic violence, 'bad guys' using your gun against you, escalated violence, etc...) Didn't the kids at Columbine use their parent's 'home protection' guns?

6. Personal protection - my favourite stupidity after the Aurora incident are the morons who claim that theatre goers with guns would have prevented the massacre by taking out the shooter. First, how do we know there weren't people in the theatre with guns? Second, wasn't the guy wearing body armour? Third, wouldn't people firing back from their seats increase the chaos? Fourth, wouldn't people firing from their seats, in a dark theatre, with tear gas, people screaming and running, and panic all around, increase the likelihood of innocent casualties? Bullets flying everywhere would have killed more people, especially automatic weapons.

7. Collection - really? Collect automatic weapons? I think your insecure sense of masculinity needs addressing some other way. How much suffering is caused by preventing collectors? What if I want to collect landmines? We give up our freedoms in the name of safety everyday. I really want to ignore traffic lights - they infringe upon my vehicular creativity. I chafe at how 'big government' arrests me for screaming 'bomb' as a joke on a plane. Give me a break. We can give up automatic weapon collecting. Get another hobby.

8. Knives, axes, maces, bats, fists of fury, killer bees kill people - Not at the same efficiency as guns, especially automatic weapons. You can't kill dozens in the span of seconds with a knife. People can run from a knife wielding maniac.

9. 'Bad guys' have guns - yes they do. Funny thing - in countries where there are greater restrictions on guns (UK, Canada, etc...) people get shot less. What? How does that work? If we don't have gun, the 'bad guys' will get us! Gun violence is lower when there are less guns, or more specifically, less deadly guns around (there are a crap-load of rifles and shotguns in Canada, but handguns are hard to get, and automatic are illegal). The crime rate is going down. Time to stop living in fear of the 'bad guy'. Having less guns, especially automatic weapons, makes the culture of fear diminish. Human beings, but especially America, are always scared of something.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not anti-gun. Rifles and shotguns are useful tools. Even though I'm not a fan, I understand that handguns are going nowhere, and that Americans have the right to bear arms. I'm open to the argument of the right of having a gun at home. But I fail to see how automatic weapons carry the same necessity. The costs outweigh the gains.

I guess nothing changes. I hope that 5 years from now, my argument is dated because things have finally changed for the better.

On a side note, shouldn't this be moved to the politics forum?

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

Hayden — Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:38:00 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 10/04/2017 02:38

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

Quote:

Also, does anyone have an info on how he got into the hotel? In the States, are you seriously just allowed to bring bagfulls of guns into hotels? Like, is that under the second amendment?

Have you ever been to a hotel where they check the contents of your bag to allow you into a room? It would be the same anywhere.

Suppose that's true. Just put them in a couple suitcases I guess. For some reason I had it in my head that the hotel would have known, wasn't thinking.

Also, didn't know you worked security, but thanks for your thoroughness with everyone, it's definitely proving important.

Anywho, I'm going to exit this convo. My condolences to the families and victims.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RoundTheBend — Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:20:54 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 10/04/2017 02:20

Also although a thread is likely deserving of the whole thoughts and prayers and respect and all...

The original questions in the op were indeed asking how this could stop.

Just wanted to clarify how this got so political... It was asked to be, not that those who have talked about the questions asked were being callous.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

Tha1ChiefRocka — Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:16:42 GMT

Author: Tha1ChiefRocka

Posted: 10/04/2017 02:16

Quote:

Also, does anyone have an info on how he got into the hotel? In the States, are you seriously just allowed to bring bagfulls of guns into hotels? Like, is that under the second amendment?

Have you ever been to a hotel where they check the contents of your bag to allow you into a room? It would be the same anywhere.

Re: Las Vegas concert massacre

RoundTheBend — Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:11:16 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 10/04/2017 02:11

Hayden, yes. You can bring bags full of guns anywhere there aren't metal detectors. I don't have a conceal and carry permit and don't know the law in and out, but I have seen gun racks in rear window of trucks and cars.. People carrying guns out in the open walking down the street, also known as open carry. And lastly I've seen trunks of cars full of guns.

It's not everyday and most sane people feel those people are disturbed, but yes it exists. Not at all surprised.