Best Ever Albums

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Thad — Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:13:24 GMT

Author: Thad

Posted: 02/07/2018 02:13

Trout Mask just doesn't do it for me like the Velvets. Nothing to do with merit and I can't really say why, but that's just how music is sometimes

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

PurpleHazel — Tue, 6 Feb 2018 02:56:24 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 02/06/2018 07:56

Puncture Repair wrote:

Here's the thing, I'm not much of a musician, but I can play all the chords present in Frownland, and I like to think I would be pretty capable of writing different simple melodies and have them play over one another in a way that sounded non-conventional. That said, I don't think I would be able to create Frownland.

What is it that separates my many different and connected parts to Beefheart's many different and connected parts?

Are they both complex?

Fair question. If you could play 20 melodies in two minutes that fitted together as a song in your mind, and another guitarist played a different 20 melodies you'd written for him at the same time -- maybe threw in another tim signature -- and you'd worked it out enough in advance that the resulting song made sense to you, I'd say that was complex. Anything that's greatly more complicated than the average for that musical genre, I'd consider complex.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Anonymous — Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:01:01 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/05/2018 15:01

PurpleHazel wrote:

Because TMR consists "of many different and connected parts."

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

PurpleHazel — Mon, 5 Feb 2018 00:45:38 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 02/05/2018 05:45

PurpleHazel wrote:

Obviously, TMR meets the above definition easily.

Puncture Repair wrote:

Why?

Because TMR consists "of many different and connected parts."

Quote:

Is there any value in breaking down a songs objective components? Yes, but only if it's supporting a subjective argument.

If your opinion is that an analysis only has value if it's supporting a subjective argument, that's totally reasonable. But that wasn't his aim, and some people found the video to have value (just as others seemed not to).

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Anonymous — Sun, 4 Feb 2018 08:11:47 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/04/2018 13:11

PurpleHazel wrote:

Obviously, TMR meets the above definition easily.

Why?

PurpleHazel wrote:

Bears being scary is subjective. Someone in a Humvee, or Timothy Treadwell, the subject of the documentary "Grizzly Man," might not have found bears scary.

Exactly my point. You begin analyzing the point where you offer contextual examples. I don't want to summon "yet another" subjective vs objective debate - but I'm definitely on the 'music is entirely subjective' side of the fence. Is there any value in breaking down a songs objective components? Yes, but only if it's supporting a subjective argument.

PurpleHazel wrote:

he just reversed the words lyric and narrative.

That was pretty complex of him, amarite

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

PurpleHazel — Sun, 4 Feb 2018 03:06:24 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 02/04/2018 08:06

Puncture Repair wrote:

I don't want to get too into the semantics. I think complexity when it comes to man-made expression is a different beast. ...That's where 'complexity' is in anything subjective.

Definition of complex (adj.):

1.consisting of many different and connected parts.
- not easy to analyze or understand; complicated or intricate.

Haven't seen any definition of complex that addresses the man-made or the arts specifically (just math and chemistry). If you have, please share. Obviously, TMR meets the above definition easily.

Quote:

I've only written papers on literacy and politics, but it was driven into me from a young age that when writing anything academic you make your point, you provide your evidence, and then you justify why that evidence links to your point.

At the beginning of the video, Andreyev states his aim:

"...one thing that’s often struck me is that critics attempting to write about this album have tended to rely, rather excessively in my view, on emotional descriptors of what their experience of listening to it is which doesn’t always help us to get a handle on exactly what is going on in one of these songs from a musical or analytical perspective. So I’m going to try to do that and I’m going to look at it using precise technical and analytical terminology so that we really get a sense of what this thing is exactly."

To paraphrase it more succinctly, I believe he's saying that instead of providing a subjective, emotional review as music critics usually do, he's going to analyze the song from a technical musical perspective. That's exactly what he does, perhaps more so after the analysis of the lyrics.

Quote:

He calls it a 'first person lyric narrative piece', which isn’t a thing, it’s just some words he put in order on the spot.

A first-person narrative lyric is a thing, he just reversed the words lyric and narrative.

Quote:

It would similar to writing a paper on why Bears are scary, then showing that they are made of fur, sharp teeth, and big paws, and saying 'like I said, very scary'.

Bears being scary is subjective. Someone in a Humvee, or Timothy Treadwell, the subject of the documentary "Grizzly Man," might not have found bears scary. Andreyev states he wants to avoid the subjective reviews music critics usually write and examine the music from a more objective, technical angle. Even if he praises the album in passing a couple of times, his stated purpose is not to argue how awesome the album is, but analyze the music technically.

If you think his technical musical analysis is dry or lifeless, and you would've preferred another type of analysis, that's totally cool. But I think he more or less delivers on his stated aim.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Tap — Sat, 3 Feb 2018 06:29:45 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 02/03/2018 11:29

economics is a man made beast tho. and sometimes things are simple and some things are complex and some things are somewhere in the middle and the description has nothing to do with their subjective quality or merit, it is just a statement of fact about their construction.

I don't think the point of this video is to be the end of a conversation, to have fully expressed every facet of what it means to be a human experiencing this music. it's just trying to show what is happening in this one song. if everyone was like "bears are an expression of Zeus' madness! they are glorious and unknowable and we must fear them" even though those people are totally on the right track, we should fear bears, still in that situation maybe there is some value to someone saying they're made of fur and have sharp teeth and big paws and are mammals etc.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Anonymous — Sat, 3 Feb 2018 06:00:22 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/03/2018 11:00

I don't want to get too into the semantics. I think complexity when it comes to man-made expression is a different beast. Otherwise where does it stop - music is just 12 notes put in order, life is just particles put in order etc etc.

I've only written papers on literacy and politics, but it was driven into me from a young age that when writing anything academic you make your point, you provide your evidence, and then you justify why that evidence links to your point. Maybe music study is different, I remember my mates having to memorized long series of classical chord progressions. The guy is clearly a well studied composer, and understands musical theory well, but he doesn't justify any of his examples. It would similar to writing a paper on why Bears are scary, then showing that they are made of fur, sharp teeth, and big paws, and saying 'like I said, very scary'. Music is man-made expression, it needs human exploration. Human exploration is emotive, it's narrative driven, it's context and history driven. That's where 'complexity' is in anything subjective. It's the why and not the what.

I should hammer that I'm not critiquing the album. Does it have to be this work of genius for us to enjoy it or value it? It's crazy, it breaks the rules. It's got something loud to say and it doesn't even have to say it. We were doing that before Beefheart, and we're still doing it today. Even if it was just a bunch of dudes wanking off for 80 minutes (which I don't think it was), it shouldn't make it any more or less of an album, and it would still be deserving of actual analysis.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

PurpleHazel — Sat, 3 Feb 2018 05:05:22 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 02/03/2018 10:05

Puncture Repair wrote:

I'm not convinced layering and sequencing simple rock sections in strange ways is complex. A plate of a hundred different foods isn't necessarily complex, and I don't know if a painting made of a million simple paintings would necessarily be complex either. They might be a great mess though.

I don't accept the premise that all the sections are simple, but the way they're combined is definitely complex.
A painting of normal size made up of a million paintings would most likely be complex, and a dish with a million ingredients would have a complex taste -- too complex!

It's not fair to critique an album based on breaking one song into its constituent elements and playing them with a generic tone on an electric keyboard. It's like judging "Stairway to Heaven" or "Money" by muzak versions. Also a part can't be judged as simple in isolation, you have to look how it fits into the harmony, fits in with the rhythm, how it interacts with the other parts, and sometimes, whether it's a different time signature. If it's polytonal or polyrhythmic, then by definition it's complex. Also, obviously, it's not the just the notes and the basic rhythm, but how they're played. If an average musician plays the notes of a Hendrix solo or a Bootsy Collins bassline on a Casio, he's losing practically all of what makes them great -- bending, vibrato, touch, attack etc. There's a fair amount of slide guitar on TMR, utilized in a way it'd never been before. You'd lose almost all of that effect with the keyboard in the video.

Andreyev (the video guy) may be a composer, but I bet he has a postgraduate degree in musicology or something like that, because his approach is fairly typical academic analysis. Despite an occasional stray descriptor that suggests he thinks TMR was delivered by Moses from heaven, he focuses on areas that can be objectively analyzed. As others have pointed out, he concentrates on the lyrics first -- exactly what I'd expect an academic or critic to do (he sounds like he's familiar with literary theory). Then as a musician/academic he analyzes the music and its constituent parts. He doesn't discuss Beefheart's influences or why he might've made the musical choices he did -- he sticks to the "text," suggesting literary theory. Asides aside, he doesn't critique the music as a critic would, which is good or bad or both depending on your point of view. So this is academic analysis some might find dry or draining the joy from the music.

BUT... I still think the video is worthwhile. First, it's a mad, subversive subject for this type of approach -- just the contrast is a kick. Second, he discusses a two-minute song for a half-hour. I mean, if he did a half-hour on Sgt. Pepper, it'd be trite, but on two minutes of Beefheart, it's pretty rad. Third, what separates this from practically all other academic analysis is that he can put his musician hat on and perform the different fragmentary parts: that's fascinating and pretty rare, really the key part of the video. Fourth, he's good at what he does: he's lucid, articulate, methodical. Maybe most songs couldn't support this approach, but a song from an album that's confounded music fans for decades, this could be quite helpful for many. It would've completely blown my mind if I'd heard it back in the 80s, before universities started offering courses on Madonna and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. If nothing else, he demolishes the notion that it's just five people who can barely play their instruments wanking off for 80 minutes.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

RoundTheBend — Sat, 3 Feb 2018 01:09:29 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/03/2018 06:09

Gowi wrote:

idk bro, your last comment kind of gives off the impression you just want comfort food in music and that rubs me the wrong way so much

Good. You didn't even have to work hard to be rubbed the wrong way.

Besides the fact that you completely misunderstood what I was saying.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Tap — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:27:42 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 02/02/2018 21:27

Something can have simple components or be messy or not be good and still be complex. the economy is complex.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Anonymous — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:09:32 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/02/2018 21:09

Tap wrote:

What does complex mean to you, exactly? How can something with this many components crammed into 2 minutes not be complex?

Tap wrote:

Also lol @ continuing to interpret a statement that begins with "if you are a music student" as being more than that

a'ight

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Tap — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 15:28:11 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 02/02/2018 20:28

What does complex mean to you, exactly? How can something with this many components crammed into 2 minutes not be complex?

Also lol @ continuing to interpret a statement that begins with "if you are a music student" as being more than that

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Anonymous — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 14:57:19 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/02/2018 19:57

Tap wrote:

I hear about people all the time talking about the music that other people absolutely should be listening to. It doesn't seem any more controversial than the comment about considering this album to be an essential part of an education for a music student. Seems weird that nobody had these issues when there was that thread about the 1,001 albums you have to hear before you die. Yeah, woeful sounds goofy and 4 seems like an arbitrary number, but this shit happens all the time and no one cares so it seems kind of shitty to suddenly start caring when looking at what's going on in the music is brought up as a way to push against the idea that such a thing is impossible with this music.

I guess it's just a way of putting it. It's a lot more inviting to say you'll be a more invested musician or music-fan if you listen to Trout, rather than saying if you don't, you're a bad one. It's thrown around a lot, granted. When it's what's said to preface a thirty minute video, I feel as though he's putting more weight behind it than a throwaway internet comment. That made me start caring, not sure if that's shitty, but it probably is admittedly a waste of time.

Tap wrote:

And yeah the video isn't perfect, the stuff about the lyrics doesn't really matter to me, the role of the vocals in the music is ignored, but still, there is value in going over what these instruments are doing. I don't think it's his role to sell you on the why of it, or the effect it produces, because it's always going to be valid to absolutely hate this music or not give a shit at all, and it seems like if he was to say that you're supposed to feel x but you feel y, then somehow you're listening to it wrong. I don't think that would be better, or accurate. But now maybe this information can help provide some clarity to people expressing why they feel however they feel about this album (something like how there's a feeling of the track making it's own sort of sense and teaching you how to hear it, how it sounded like an atonal mess on first listen but since there is clarity to the tonality on an individual-sequence-of-notes level, and how the track eventually settles down with the majority of elements in G major, that allowed for repeated listens to lead to an intuitive if not technical understanding of the systems in place where the sensation of the tonal character of the track coming more into focus creates a sensation on the opening track of encountering some mystifying beast in the wild and being trampled by it the first time, but then later being able to hitch a saddle on it and get taken for the wildest ride. or something like that)

There's definitely value in what the instruments are doing, and it's probably a much better video for someone that's convinced Trout Mask Replica is, as the guy clears up, atonal or completely improvised or just lacking any kind of structure. Like AfterHours put better than I could, it's all to the end of madness. Whether it's a work of 'genius', or as 'complex' as the guy likes to throw around, I'm not entirely convinced - but 'masterpieces' don't necessarily need to be. It's canon, and people love to justify the canon, especially eloquent pastey dudes in suits. I'm sure there's worse videos out there justifying why 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' is a masterclass in composition. I think the video presented itself as something it's not, and I think it's presenting Trout Mask Replica as something it's not.

Tap wrote:

I will concede though that the usual bounty of worthwhile contributions from viewers that you see in the youtube comment section isn't present on this video. I mean I don't know about you, but I read youtube for the comments section, it really is a great place that feels good to be, every single time, until this one video.

You got me there.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

PurpleHazel — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 05:20:35 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 02/02/2018 10:20

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

You know what hasn't been mentioned (and it rarely is when this mess is mentioned)? Zappa produced this album. I don't know how much he actually did, but I would bet that all of the chaos was aided by his genius, since he had already made several albums that were better anyway.

It appears that Zappa had minimal direct influence on the content of the music on TMR, though the album wouldn't exist in anything like its present form if Zappa hadn't agreed to put it on his record label and essentially give Beefheart complete artistic freedom. Beefheart composed and rehearsed most of the music with the band over several months in a rented house they lived in communally. Zappa wanted to record the album at the house as an "anthropological field recording" -- perhaps inspired by his approach with An Evening With Wild Man Fischer and the GTOs album -- but Beefheart thought Zappa was cheaping out, so only one song with the band that Zappa and his engineer recorded at the house made it onto the album. Zappa told Beefheart they'd have to record all the instrumental tracks in one late night studio session, so the band rehearsed intensively enough that they were able to perform the whole album in that time with no retakes (except for six previously recorded songs). The one song Zappa materially contributed to is "The Blimp." One of the Magic Band guitar players, Jeff Cotton, recited a Beefheart poem over the phone while Zappa recorded it, and then Zappa used a previously recorded live (?) Mothers of Invention piece (uncredited) as the backing track.

Zappa and Beefheart were friends in junior high school and played in a band together early on, but as both were control freaks they then went their own ways for the most part. Both were heavily influenced by blues, free jazz and experimental classical music, but it manifests in their music quite differently. I think TMR is a slightly more radical, consistent statement than any one album Zappa did, but Zappa made more high-quality music over many more albums, some of them also great.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

Tap — Fri, 2 Feb 2018 00:20:43 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 02/02/2018 05:20

so re: the rest of Puncture Repair's points

I hear about people all the time talking about the music that other people absolutely should be listening to. It doesn't seem any more controversial than the comment about considering this album to be an essential part of an education for a music student. Seems weird that nobody had these issues when there was that thread about the 1,001 albums you have to hear before you die. Yeah, woeful sounds goofy and 4 seems like an arbitrary number, but this shit happens all the time and no one cares so it seems kind of shitty to suddenly start caring when looking at what's going on in the music is brought up as a way to push against the idea that such a thing is impossible with this music.

And yeah the video isn't perfect, the stuff about the lyrics doesn't really matter to me, the role of the vocals in the music is ignored, but still, there is value in going over what these instruments are doing. I don't think it's his role to sell you on the why of it, or the effect it produces, because it's always going to be valid to absolutely hate this music or not give a shit at all, and it seems like if he was to say that you're supposed to feel x but you feel y, then somehow you're listening to it wrong. I don't think that would be better, or accurate. But now maybe this information can help provide some clarity to people expressing why they feel however they feel about this album (something like how there's a feeling of the track making it's own sort of sense and teaching you how to hear it, how it sounded like an atonal mess on first listen but since there is clarity to the tonality on an individual-sequence-of-notes level, and how the track eventually settles down with the majority of elements in G major, that allowed for repeated listens to lead to an intuitive if not technical understanding of the systems in place where the sensation of the tonal character of the track coming more into focus creates a sensation on the opening track of encountering some mystifying beast in the wild and being trampled by it the first time, but then later being able to hitch a saddle on it and get taken for the wildest ride. or something like that)

I would say by going over the tonalities and the variety of changes there, and demonstrating how they operate consistently within their cell, the 'jumble of tonalities' statement is more than justified.

I will concede though that the usual bounty of worthwhile contributions from viewers that you see in the youtube comment section isn't present on this video. I mean I don't know about you, but I read youtube for the comments section, it really is a great place that feels good to be, every single time, until this one video.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

mickilennial — Thu, 1 Feb 2018 23:57:46 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 02/02/2018 04:57

idk bro, your last comment kind of gives off the impression you just want comfort food in music and that rubs me the wrong way so much

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

RoundTheBend — Thu, 1 Feb 2018 23:42:37 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/02/2018 04:42

Gowi wrote:

Tragedy, Depression, and Madness are all some of the most essential pieces of art.

Correct.

I'm not saying give me karo syrup every time.

Key word was tragically.

I suppose what I am saying is I don't need to see pictures of the last duke you took to know you shit, and you don't need to come and show it to me to show me if it stinks or not.

There's an aesthetic difference.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

mickilennial — Thu, 1 Feb 2018 23:37:21 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 02/02/2018 04:37

Tragedy, Depression, and Madness are all some of the most essential pieces of art.

Re: Trout Mask Replica vs. White Light/White Heat

RoundTheBend — Thu, 1 Feb 2018 22:48:14 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/02/2018 03:48

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

This is making way more sense now.

I love Frank Zappa, but I can barely stand some of his music. I mean really. I love his commentary on society and even attended his funded high school program at Van Nuys High School called Z.I.T. = Zappa Institute of Technology. It was basically a class on how to be a roady from his sound engineer. It was rad.

I'm going crazy enough as it is, I don't need music to take me there. I need music to take me out of that. Connect me to a humanity that is beautiful, true, and real, but not tragically depressing and maddening. I have enough of that in day to day life.