Best Ever Albums

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

hereforashortime — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:58:47 GMT

Author: hereforashortime

Posted: 02/19/2018 01:58

TheHutts wrote:

I like the album, but the three best remembered songs ('Scarborough Fair', 'Homeward Bound', '59th Street') overshadow the rest. Their last Simon and Garfunkel two albums have a higher density of great songs, and Simon has his own established style.

Agreed.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

TheHutts — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:02:47 GMT

Author: TheHutts

Posted: 02/18/2018 22:02

Paul Simon's lyrics on Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme remind me of an over-eager, naive, first year English Major. They're not without merit, but they're pretentious and awkward. There's a definitely dorky, outsider feel on them too, like the dramatic "Four Letters" climax to 'Poem on an Underground Wall'.

I like the album, but the three best remembered songs ('Scarborough Fair', 'Homeward Bound', '59th Street') overshadow the rest. Their last Simon and Garfunkel two albums have a higher density of great songs, and Simon has his own established style.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:51:39 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/18/2018 20:51

sethmadsen wrote:

Michael1981 wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

This is true - I think the Beatnik's (S&G) weren't as culturally prolific as the Summer of Love hippies (even if the Beatles were brought into that, they themselves didn't classify themselves as such). But the fact that The Beatles were tapping into that Timothy Leary stuff and the others as you described, does make it culturally "more significant". Totally agree there.

But I still think the Beatnik stuff is culturally significant.

Good point. I hadn't thought of PSR&T as being a beatnick album, but it fits the bill perfectly from what I've just read about this. Though I'm not convinced it conveys ideas/feelings feelings of the beat generation/ beatnik's all that creatively or imaginatively. Seems like Dylan captured that freewheeling, anti-authoritarian, literate, "on the road" type of spirit in a much better way. Admittedly though I don't know much about this and have only heard PSR&T a few times.

Oh for sure - if you are going to do a Dylan vs Simon, Dylan is going to win every time.

For me personally the music on PSR&T does more for me than a lot of what Dylan did, but his lyricism and cultural significance is obviously 10x more than Simon ever did. Having said that, I think Simon's lyricism is pretty high on the chain.

But to be fair, it's not like the most culturally significant Beatnik album ever and only loosely has ties to Beatnik. And probably Astral Weeks has just as strong of ties to it and is often revered more. This is all conjecture... these albums just have that poetic feel that is likely Beatnik influenced. I suppose all I'm saying is does PSR&T have it's place, absolutely... but no... when you look up beatnik music, this likely won't be the poster child (I just did and of course all the big artists like Beatles (which claims to have partially named their band with the A because of their admiration of the works from the Beat generation). I suppose you don't have to go much further to just look at the cover of PSR&T to see the influence: "while Paul rises just behind, the modern poet-troubadour clad in cambric and shadow" - you know the pretentiousness argument. Anyway, I much like the poetry on this album. While Beatnik did go into the mid 60s, this is likely the near end of it, and most see jazz as the Beatnik music of choice. But even though I have no evidence than the music itself to support it PSR&T either was at the tail end of Beatnik culture or at least was heavily influenced by it (especially since they were in the scene a the time - Columbia university, etc.).

Were S&G a big player in the culture of the 60s? Absolutely. Were they the biggest players, no. Maybe top 10, but likely more like top 15.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I guess it's sometimes hard to avoid Dylan comparisons when it comes to Simon. I think by Bookends though he really has a strong direction of his own across a full album. Personally, I think that album is a bit flawed as well, but Simon no longer seems in anyone's shadow.

And yeah I think you got the beatnick thing right with S and G. Just look at the turtlenecks on the front of the Bookends album. Totally beatnick!

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:10:12 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/18/2018 20:10

Fischman wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Fischman wrote:

Even Sound of Silence didn't resonate with me until Disturbed did it. They brought an appropriate level of intensity to that otherwise sad sack song.

🤣 🤣 🤣

Don't hold anything back!

I find the Disturbed version pretentious (there's that stupid word again!), even if a decent interpretation of the song and the original absolutely beautiful (but could've been recorded/mixed better).

To me, it's S&G who sound pretentious with their incessant mix of "pretty" harmonies and understated deliver, as if that's some kind of magic formula that only they can deliver, but they think works for everything. To me, the lyrical content of Sound of Silence is much better served by demonstrating some angst and discontent rather than unwavering, quiet resignation. There is something maddening about this form of silence, and that needs to be expressed. The way the Disturbed version builds and swells sonically, just as the expression of the reaction to silence itself builds as the song progresses, is what truly brings life to the lyric. It is genuinely powerful, and the most powerful expression of the lyric possible. It moves my in a way the original never could.

It's rare that I think a cover exceeds, let alone blows away, the original. Other than Hendrix' Watchtower, there's not much I can think of offhand. And the gap here is far beyond the gap in Watchtower, which is saying something because I straight up hate Dylan.[/quote]

Hmmm... that's interesting. I find the emotion in Disturbed's version force and the S&G more dynamic and honest, and therefore more emotionally powerful. Different strokes for different folks.

Pretentious, to me, means that someone is going out of their normal realm of cultural significance, etc. For example, U2 doing Rattle and Hum was seen as such. The musicians they were rubbing shoulders didn't and even complimented their musicianship/artistic abilities, but critics murdered them for it. Same happened for Paul Simon for Graceland (amongst other political issues, and it seems some African artists supported him for it and some didn't).

My understanding is Simon & Garfunkel really were a part of the culture that would write something powerful like sound of silence (lyrically) and to me Disturbed isn't... and therefore a bit pretentious. That vocal performance seems to me to be trying to hard. But maybe Disturbed always sounds that way... I don't know their music that well. To me it sounds like a man rock version (ala Creed/Nickelback). I'd take S&G over it any day. Now that sounds like their cover has no value, and that's not true either. It's not a bad rendition, I'm just saying it has it's flaws too.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:57:14 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/18/2018 19:57

Michael1981 wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Feb 2018 12:53:59 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/18/2018 17:53

sethmadsen wrote:

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:59:06 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/17/2018 02:59

Michael1981 wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Michael1981 wrote:

They seem cautious about 60s counter-culture but I don't think they say to much meaningful about it on this album really, compared to the Beatles or Dylan for example. Except for the powerful anti-Vietnam war feeling on two tracks that is. That doesn't make it a bad album of course, it just doesn't seem that culturally significant to me.

Which counter-culture stuff are you referring to for all three? Worth discussing?

If you are talking about 7 'Oclock news - I love that juxtaposition. Absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, in terms of appreciating Revolver for me this counter-cultural thing is so important. I think this album is the Beatles expressing and reflecting counter-cultural ideas related to their experiences with LSD, hippyish ideas and even eastern religion. People talk about Tomorrow Never Knows a lot in that respect but really I think its the whole album expressing something of these ideas of heightened consciousness and connection, and the experience of psychedelic drugs.

I couldn't really enjoy this album until I could see it in that kind of way. If I want to listen to great Beatles tunes, harmonies and singing I might as well listen to one of the first five albums. Revolver is the Beatles going fully psychedelic. Pepper is as well, of course, but I find Revolver is maybe more idealistic and optimistic in its outlook than Pepper, making it probably the fabs most "hippy" album.

With Simon and Garfunkel, yeah I was meaning Silent Night/ 7 O'Clock News and Scarborough Fair Canticle. Both lovely juxtapositions of sweet folk music and concerns about the Vietnam war.

In terms of contrast to the Beatles, I don't think Simon and Garfunkel really embrace hippy counter-culture on this album. Big Bright Pleasure Machine is described on Wikipedia as a satire of hippy hedonism and "Poem on an underground wall" seems to cast them more as observers of transgression rather than active participants (though that may be over-interpreting). 59th Bridge Street (Feeling Groovy) sounds kinda hippyish, though I'm not sure if it's a little tongue-in-cheek or maybe just a songwriting exercise for Paul Simon.

Overall, I think they are striving to be literate commentators and write more grown-up songs in the style of Dylan. But on these earlier albums I don't think you could say they had even a remotely similar cultural impact as Dylan. They were just one-step (at least) behind him all the time and don't convince in the same way with their literary references on this album. I do like the album, just don't think its on the same level if you want to consider cultural importance.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Fischman — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:34:53 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 02/16/2018 21:34

RockyRaccoon wrote:

Jesus you hate the Beatles and Dylan? My heart hurts.

Neil Young, too 😁

Actually I don't hate the Beatles, I just find them very hit or miss and think they're nowhere all they're cracked up to be. I do really like Revolver, and would actually rank it highly if it weren't for that stupid submarine song.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RockyRaccoon — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:41:33 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 02/16/2018 20:41

Fischman wrote:

which is saying something because I straight up hate Dylan.

Jesus you hate the Beatles and Dylan? My heart hurts.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Fischman — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:29:36 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 02/16/2018 15:29

sethmadsen wrote:

Fischman wrote:

Even Sound of Silence didn't resonate with me until Disturbed did it. They brought an appropriate level of intensity to that otherwise sad sack song.

See, I don't find the Disturbed version pretentious at all. (but then I'm a big prog fan, so some might say I have an unusually high tolerance for pretentiousness 😁 ). But really, this is Disturbed--pretty much a straight up mainstream post-grunge/alt-metal band. They don't exactly maintain their fan base by throwing out grandiose intellectual gestures.

To me, it's S&G who sound pretentious with their incessant mix of "pretty" harmonies and understated deliver, as if that's some kind of magic formula that only they can deliver, but they think works for everything. To me, the lyrical content of Sound of Silence is much better served by demonstrating some angst and discontent rather than unwavering, quiet resignation. There is something maddening about this form of silence, and that needs to be expressed. The way the Disturbed version builds and swells sonically, just as the expression of the reaction to silence itself builds as the song progresses, is what truly brings life to the lyric. It is genuinely powerful, and the most powerful expression of the lyric possible. It moves my in a way the original never could.

It's rare that I think a cover exceeds, let alone blows away, the original. Other than Hendrix' Watchtower, there's not much I can think of offhand. And the gap here is far beyond the gap in Watchtower, which is saying something because I straight up hate Dylan.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Anonymous — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:03:02 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/16/2018 13:03

sethmadsen wrote:

Michael1981 wrote:

Which counter-culture stuff are you referring to for all three? Worth discussing?

If you are talking about 7 'Oclock news - I love that juxtaposition. Absolutely beautiful.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 00:23:46 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/16/2018 05:23

Michael1981 wrote:

Yann wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Yann wrote:

I like Simon and Garfunkel but I think they are at their best when they're strictly pop.

When might this be?

Also Taxman is one of my favorite Beatles songs... hehehe. To each their own. I guess I can see where you are coming from with the lyrics - they are simple, but they also are pretty cutting. I also love the bass and guitar work in it.

Cool when Sethmadsen collect the “papers” 🤤

About Taxman, you’re right about the rhythm section, and yes the song is quite engaging for that reason, but I’m not one of those Taxman/Rain/Paperback Writers admirers: really not their best melodies/tunes. And I don’t find very entertaining a song about tax collection. (besides tax is good for investment, growth and reducting the ever growing inegality between the rich and the poor 😄 ).

About folk music, to me pop has mostly outdated it. These pop pionners have created a music that directly influenced today’s pop/rock music (regardless of R&B massive resurgence)
Whereas Jefferson Airplane’s folk is very dated to me (especially the singing) and I doubt there will be a Jefferson Airplane revival someday, even if their songs were good.
(deep choked 80’s voices will (or have) probably followed the same fate, except Spandau Ballet’s True, which is immortal)

to answer your question, The song Bridge over Troubled Water for example, I don't know if it's pop, but it doesn't have at all that sort of dated 60's folk singing.

Yeah, Seth is awesome on the feedback/ discussion 😁

I kinda like some 60s folk, though I don't know the scene well.

My problem is more that I feel like Simon and Garfunkel didnt quite know what direction they wanted to go in at the time of PSR&T. It seems to veer between folk, pop, a bit of a nod to jazz. Then pastiches of folk-rock and psych-rock as well. They seem cautious about 60s counter-culture but I don't think they say to much meaningful about it on this album really, compared to the Beatles or Dylan for example. Except for the powerful anti-Vietnam war feeling on two tracks that is. That doesn't make it a bad album of course, it just doesn't seem that culturally significant to me.

The bolded statement might be what I love the most about the album. I know it is seen as a struggle, but sometimes the greatest works of art are created in chaos/unstable situations. A struggle.

Which counter-culture stuff are you referring to for all three? Worth discussing?

If you are talking about 7 'Oclock news - I love that juxtaposition. Absolutely beautiful.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 00:12:18 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/16/2018 05:12

Fischman wrote:

Even Sound of Silence didn't resonate with me until Disturbed did it. They brought an appropriate level of intensity to that otherwise sad sack song.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 00:09:19 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/16/2018 05:09

Yann wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Yann wrote:

I like Simon and Garfunkel but I think they are at their best when they're strictly pop.

First - no worries. People like what they like and they don't have to defend it. I end up learning when I ask why though. And yes, it is a bit simple on the melody side. Melody often suffers when focus is on syncopation, etc. I'm often drawn to the rhythm as much if not more than the melody. I generally find music with only a strong melody quite boring actually. Like those songs where you can just turn off the bass and only have really high treble and nothing really changed... hahaha. 8 times out of 10 it's because it is a boring work lacking any real depth (imo).

Yann wrote:

And I don’t find very entertaining a song about tax collection. (besides tax is good for investment, growth and reducting the ever growing inegality between the rich and the poor 😄 ).

I totally agree. Taxes have nearly always been the base of society in one form or another since the beginning of time. No man is an island. I don't really want to go into a political debate - but I will say I envy systems who actually use "taxation with true representation" - meaning the people get a good deal instead of corruption and waste.

As for the song - I like music that challenges status quo and asks questions/demands answers/puts a mirror to society - for me, that's what makes it great.

Perhaps we could get They Might Be Giants to sing us the IRS tax code though? Yeah... then I'd totally tune out.
🤣

Yann wrote:

About folk music, to me pop has mostly outdated it. These pop pionners have created a music that directly influenced today’s pop/rock music (regardless of R&B massive resurgence)
Whereas Jefferson Airplane’s folk is very dated to me (especially the singing) and I doubt there will be a Jefferson Airplane revival someday, even if their songs were good.
(deep choked 80’s voices will (or have) probably followed the same fate, except Spandau Ballet’s True, which is immortal)

to answer your question, The song Bridge over Troubled Water for example, I don't know if it's pop, but it doesn't have at all that sort of dated 60's folk singing.

Hmmm interesting point of view. I'm not sure how to respond to it other than there's quite a few artists in 2017 still doing that folk music. I think it's because it often is contemplative and beautiful. I don't know Spandau Ballet's True - so no comment.

Interesting on Bridge Over Troubled Water - I think the string arrangement is a bit outdated. The vocals, to me, still have that contemplative feel to them... but I agree, it's more or less a pop song with incredible emotion (Garfunkel hitting the high notes?) You know those bands who you love, but actually inspired terrible music (Pearl Jam?) I'm afraid Bridge Over Trouble Water (even though I love it) inspired a lot of crappy music... stuff like Air Supply.

Anyway, I'm just rambling with my opinion. I'm sure half of it is wrong. Cheers mate!

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Fischman — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:52:57 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 02/15/2018 17:52

I generally love to vote against the Beatles, but here we've got the one Beatle album I can get on with vs another artist I can never get on with, so Revolver it is without hesitation.

Even Sound of Silence didn't resonate with me until Disturbed did it. They brought an appropriate level of intensity to that otherwise sad sack song.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Anonymous — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 08:10:29 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/15/2018 13:10

Yann wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Yann wrote:

I like Simon and Garfunkel but I think they are at their best when they're strictly pop.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

Anonymous — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:09:25 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/15/2018 11:09

sethmadsen wrote:

Yann wrote:

I like Simon and Garfunkel but I think they are at their best when they're strictly pop.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:47:37 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/15/2018 03:47

Yann wrote:

I like Simon and Garfunkel but I think they are at their best when they're strictly pop.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:45:14 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/15/2018 03:45

TheHutts wrote:

The Beatles' best album vs S and G's third best album. Isn't really a contest for me. There are lots of nice tunes, pretentious lyrics, and beautiful arrangements on Parsley, but it's not a contender for my top 100.

I've always found the argument of pretentious interesting. It's like who gets to decide that the culture/importance is greater than possessed? Isn't it quite possible that someone could see any works of art could be considered pretentious?

Thing is I've made that same argument... just stating it's interesting on how it becomes understood as such.

What brings you to the conclusion it is pretentious?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I don't actually think this, but I suppose you could say TNK is pretentious. It borrows ideas from Timothy Leary and Stockhausen... they are just so pretentious to pull such great ideas into their music. I mean - I'd call bullshit on that argument, but that's technically the definition of pretentious, innit?

But you might be right that it's not their best album. For me it's a bit like choosing the best album for The Beatles post Rubber Soul. Right now PSR&T is their best album for me, but I do really like the others.

Re: Revolver vs Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, & Thyme

RoundTheBend — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 22:36:25 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 02/15/2018 03:36

Lastings wrote:

yeah... Umm..

Tomorrow Never knows almost single-handedly changed the face and direction of popular music.

P,S,R,&T is just a really good folk album.

TNK is amazing and was a force to recon with, but I'm a fan of New Historicism, which more or less means nothing really single handedly did anything. At the same time, I agree with you... it really did open some doors.

Also PSR&T is much more than a good folk album. A good folk album is Pink Moon or something. PSR&T musically is quite a bit more advanced than a good folk album.

But I also see I'm likely the minority who agrees with the brilliance on PSR&T. The lyricism, music, emotions, cleverness, etc. of it is criminally underrated, imo.