Best Ever Albums

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

RoundTheBend — Sun, 18 Mar 2018 22:31:36 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/19/2018 02:31

StreetSpirit wrote:

I think somewhere out there, Skinny is reading this thread, biding his time, waiting for the opportune moment to drop one of his always-perfect one-line responses.

🤣

Too true.

Also, I love all of you.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

YoungPunk — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 19:13:52 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/17/2018 23:13

@Puncture Repair

Hmmmm... Maybe you're right. I'm listening to the Weeknd's Starboy and Wagners Ring (known to be complex) together and starting to notice some similarities. If only researchers paid attention to real music!

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

travelful — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 18:12:34 GMT

Author: travelful

Posted: 03/17/2018 22:12

The way some people on here view hip-hop music is almost sad for a website full of apparent music nerds. Glad I'm not so ignorant.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Anonymous — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:24:04 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/17/2018 21:24

YoungPunk wrote:

Cuz my hypothesis is true :)

No, it's not.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

YoungPunk — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 14:02:52 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/17/2018 18:02

sethmadsen wrote:

This exploded... but I am le tired.

Cuz my hypothesis is true 😄

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

CA Dreamin — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:45:30 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 03/17/2018 17:45

I think somewhere out there, Skinny is reading this thread, biding his time, waiting for the opportune moment to drop one of his always-perfect one-line responses.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

SquishypuffDave — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:44:14 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 03/17/2018 12:44

I getcha. You're quite right.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

RoundTheBend — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 02:20:36 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/17/2018 06:20

SquishypuffDave wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Oh i misunderstood - wouldn't TV static just be white noise, which actually does have limitations instead of complete randomness.

It's ok... I think we both know what we are getting at, just maybe words are getting in the way?

Actually I'm curious what limitations you'd say there are on white noise? As far as I understand, there's no reason it couldn't spontaneously form any kind of sound or pattern, apart from the limitations on frequency and maybe sample rate.

White noise (as an idiot understands it) does have limitations and follows some rules. I mean there's pink, brown, and grey noise too, which also have defining qualities/rules. You are right that you could have varying white noise patterns... but it still would be a very controlled sound... I suppose what I'd consider complete chaos would be a sample of every sound ever made at varying lengths/frequencies, etc. and to have those sounds randomly programmed... to me that would be the what I'd imagine when you said:

Quote:

Therefore, I posit that the most complex music in the world is atonal noise.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

RoundTheBend — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 02:11:37 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/17/2018 06:11

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:

hip hop is as """legitimate""" as rock

It's too legit to quit.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

RoundTheBend — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 02:10:10 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/17/2018 06:10

YoungPunk wrote:

@seth

Sounds like stuff the people who haven't made it in music early on and will therefore never make it learn in their college experience rather than useful stuff :)

Sorry, my description sucked then... it's more like amazing musicians who got bored and decided to do something no one ever had done before. Experiment with the very fundamentals of music that were accepted for thousands of years and flip them on their head.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

RoundTheBend — Sat, 17 Mar 2018 01:40:54 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/17/2018 05:40

This exploded... but I am le tired.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Tap — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:01:20 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/17/2018 03:01

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:

Fischman wrote:

But your sped up Kendrick was just that--sped up Kendrick. It wasn't a piece of music.
A piece of music "has that information there in the music," is irrelevant, because that's not how it was presented in the music. That sped up sample is not the music, it is something that was done to the music

My emphasis. This is the most troubling/debate-worthy thing dropped in the thread, but y'all are hung up on whether hip hop is as """legitimate""" as rock

I felt like this was ambitious enough already

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Anonymous — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 22:55:41 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/17/2018 02:55

Fischman wrote:

My emphasis. This is the most troubling/debate-worthy thing dropped in the thread, but y'all are hung up on whether hip hop is as """legitimate""" as rock

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Luigii — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 17:28:38 GMT

Author: Luigii

Posted: 03/16/2018 21:28

In all honesty, I feel like electronic music in a lot of ways mixes both the simplicity and complexity in one package. Simplicity in how there are patterns within the music but also complex in the manipulation, sound creation and the density of the sound. I would also argue funk music share this dichotomy as well due the tight grooves and the multiple instruments. Also can't forget some genres like dream pop and shoegaze. I would also point out that the emotion a piece of music gives out is also important. But that is it as of now.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

YoungPunk — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:54:15 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/16/2018 20:54

Well its true I'm no expert. Back when I was a kid these guys were considered a joke, part of why I had to become a Classical listener. Modern rappers really did some heavy lifting to save their music, but thanks for the recommendations 😄

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Hayden — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:35:13 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 03/16/2018 19:35

Fischman wrote:

Again, much of what I say cones from textbook definitions of hip-hop, which always include at least two features:
1. Rapping or chanting. This is inherently lacking in melody. No way around it. Sure, someone can throw a line in here and there which is sung rather than spoken, but the core, the essence, is by definition, spoken and therefore relatively monotone compared to other genres. If you sing the entire song, then it's no longer hip-hop.
2. Emphasis on rhythm which by implication, means less emphasis on other musical elements. This is reinforced by #1 above. Moreover, that rhythm is, at least in application if not in written definition, artificial and repetitive.

What? Naaaaah. That's not true at all. Hip-hop doesn't need lyrics. Hip-hop can be instrumental.

And you should check out some of the artists I mentioned. They're quite good.

Quote:

But at some point, there's enough evidence that that's how it is.

If you fish in a pond for a swordfish your entire life and never catch one, it's hardly proof that they don't exist.

Quote:

old school talking stuff

And I'm going to go on a whim and say you need to listen to the artists I mentioned too.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

YoungPunk — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:13 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/16/2018 19:04

@Hayden

About the talking...

The hip hop I enjoy actually has a lot of background melody and even some singing, so I am a more modern hip hop fan. As for the more old school talking stuff do I appreciate it.
Yes.
Do I want to listen to it rather than Dream Theater, or even Drake.
No.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Tap — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 14:58:51 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/16/2018 18:58

but like eminems verse on forgot about dre has lots of deliberate variations in pitch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzSQG472L9k&feature=youtu.be&t=86

that's hip hop, right?

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Fischman — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 14:42:42 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 03/16/2018 18:42

Hayden wrote:

Fischman wrote:

If it's not following that particular formula, then it's no longer hip-hop.

Hip hop is so reliant on spoken word--which inherently lacks melody--therefore it is less varied, at least in that regard, than virtually any other music form. Hip hop lacks harmony--same analytical results. Hip hop relies on repetitive rhythms more than varied rhythms.

(for the first bit) how so?

As for spoken word lacking melody, rock can be spoken word as well. You can top hip-hop with melodies, go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. Same with harmony.

However, yes, hip-hop does rely on rhythm. Repetitive? Sometimes, sure, why not? But it doesn't have to be. Who says hip-hop rhythms have to be repetitive? Look at the new Tyler, The Creator album. Christ.

And Fischman, music aside, how much do you value lyricism? Poetry? Wordplay? You don't know what flow is, but look it up. It's also important. These are things that ad quite a bit of complexity to the genre. Hip-hop is a very lyrically focused genre, some would even say that's 'half of it'. It sounds like you think all a hip-hop song consists of is a loop and a hook.

I'm not saying your argument is invalid, it's actually quite interesting, but you're going to need to open your eyes a bit more. Have you ever heard an album by Danny Brown? MF Doom? Earl Sweatshirt? Aesop Rock? Outkast? Mos Def? Dalek?

I've got a perfectly good understanding of flow.
I understand that hip-hop is very lyrically focused. My appreciation of lyrics is admittedly very subjective.I understand that hi-hop can be lyrically complex and creative. While I may not personally appreciate the actual lyrical content, I know it can be something special to many and I don't buy in to the stereotype of it all being about glorification of thug culture. You can set any lyric at all to a hip hop beat. Heck, there's even a sub-genre of country set to hip-hop beats, colloquially known as "hick hop." Culturally, there't not much greater divide than country and hip hop, so I understand the breadth available here. But while the lyrical content may be growing in variety, the delivery is still artificial and repetitive. It just doesn't hold my interest.

Again, much of what I say cones from textbook definitions of hip-hop, which always include at least two features:
1. Rapping or chanting. This is inherently lacking in melody. No way around it. Sure, someone can throw a line in here and there which is sung rather than spoken, but the core, the essence, is by definition, spoken and therefore relatively monotone compared to other genres. If you sing the entire song, then it's no longer hip-hop.
2. Emphasis on rhythm which by implication, means less emphasis on other musical elements. This is reinforced by #1 above. Moreover, that rhythm is, at least in application if not in written definition, artificial and repetitive.

I've heard plenty of Outkast. I'm less familiar with most of the other artists you mentioned and a couple I haven't heard at all. But at some point, there's enough evidence that that's how it is.

Re: Compexity vs. Simplicity

Hayden — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 14:20:44 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 03/16/2018 18:20

Fischman wrote: