Best Ever Albums

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

YoungPunk — Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:59:07 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/30/2018 14:59

I think pop/trap/EDM are very similar to the Rock and Roll of Elvis

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 23:58:43 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/30/2018 03:58

Well said Lachapelle.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

Lachapelle — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 22:28:38 GMT

Author: Lachapelle

Posted: 03/30/2018 02:28

This conversation remind me a lot of the whole Hip Hop Is Dead controversy..

Here's what I have to say about both of these topics:

First off, neither Rock or Hip Hop are dead. They are actually more alive than they have ever been.
Where the confusion comes into play is that there are now many sub-genres that exist inside of these more general terms. The main problem that seems to keep reinventing itself is that the most popular of these sub-genres always seem to be so far away from what people remember the original genre to be (Ex: Boom Bap vs Trap, or Prog vs Punk). These differences are far from subtle, but they are still both very true to the definition of Rock or Hip Hop as a general idea.

When people say Hip Hop is dead it usually means that they dislike the modern popular display of it, and the same goes for Rock. But as all of us music nerds on this site likely know and live by is that there is so much good music out there, you simply have to be willing to dig for it. And yes that means straying away from the pop wave that we've been drowning in since the radio became a household object. Top 40 will always exists, and yes not all of it will be remembered, but that's what makes the discovery of underground artists so fun. The thrill of discovering a new artist within these two groups of music will always be around the corner, and new sub-genres will continue to be created, which will likely lead to them being overplayed, which will continue to cause the older folks to complain because change is intimidating and always will be.

Enough rambling for now.. What do you guys think?

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:56:57 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/29/2018 23:56

So if I wanted a standard grand piano to play a 72 microtonal across 5 octaves (88 keys), I'd need 6,336 keys!

I suppose there are 36 string basses... so come on!

Back on topic of things in the future... for me sometimes these potentials for new musical theory ideas don't actually go anywhere because of two things:

1) Often the average Joe is put off by such music... and that's not to say that person isn't intelligent, there's a reason that for centuries we've used the modes... they just sound naturally nice to the human ear. Iterations of these ideas have happened over the centuries and really just haven't taken off for this reason, imo.

2) idk... I'm really just rambling here.

Having said that I like the Gizz/Lizz album... but when I look at the guitars they used for the microtonal tunings, they didn't seem terribly complex, rather just spaced differently... so in otherwords they were playing probably an 8 note key, just in microtonal tuning... maybe... idk enough about it to be honest, just guessing.

What I mean is I think Gizz/Lizz did it right - they did something different, but if you didn't know any better, you'd probably think the whole album was just your normal musical tunings... and that's the brilliance of it in my opinion. They played with the uncanny valley, pushed the boundaries, yet most people probably didn't even notice... and that... imo... will be how new ideas are more and more introduced to the masses (if it so wants to).

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:46:16 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/29/2018 23:46

TheHutts wrote:

Paul Simon used a microtonal scale, with 43 tones in an octave, in his most recent album Stranger to Stranger. The song 'Insomniac's Lullaby' uses instruments that were made by the American composer Harry Partch - the Cloud-Chamber Bowls and the Chromelodeon.

I never stopped to figure this out, but I was like, dang Paul, you done written some intriguing stuff when I listened to it... now I know why.

Thanks!

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:41:23 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/29/2018 23:41

YoungPunk wrote:

@seth

In western music there are actually 12 tones in a scale, A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#. Count them! In the serial composition I am currently using, you write down each of the 12 tones (as a number) in any order once. An example of a serial composition is

1 4 6 3 2 9 12 11 10 8 5

Now my idea is if you divide the frequencies into 46 notes to achieve just intonation, you can write a song with similar ease, only with numbers going to 46 instead of 12

example

2 44 37 29 8 etc...

First - that's rad you are writing serial music. I'd love to hear it.

Just to be clear, there are 12 total notes, but in any western traditional modal scale, there are actually only 8 notes, including the octave note (which is literally the same note as the tonic, but a full registry higher... hence the name octave/eight... words/linguists and things and stuff.

So for example a B major looks like this: B, C♯, D♯, E, F♯, G♯, A♯, and then the high B to complete it. There are no additional notes in B major. If you are playing any notes not listed, you are what is considered out of key (traditionally speaking).

Modes are basically the mathematical proof of the above concept in (I think?) every variable possible of traditional half steps and whole steps.

Serial composition is breaking these previously accepted modes and saying playing out of key isn't a thing... we'll use all the notes and there is no tonic and break all the rules and F the police.

Splitting notes into smaller intervals is a thing, but it's not what like 99% of all western music does (of course I made that stat up... but for music past 1600, I feel pretty confident that's likely not far off).

Also the term intonation refers simply to assessing correct pitch... so when you intonate a guitar, you make sure that when you play an A, it actually plays an A and not a B... this is not to be confused with tuning though... it's making bridge and nut alterations to make a tuned A play a tuned A... and that the harmonics play properly as well.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a music theory nazi... I just like talking about it and clarifying. I do NOT consider myself a pro at any of these things.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:29:37 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/29/2018 23:29

Kool Keith Sweat wrote:

Joe Maneri et al. have used a 72 equal temperament scale, dividing the octave into 72 microtones vs the usual 8 tones in western music. I'd have to verify, but I don't remember it being uncommon for non-western music to have scales divided well beyond 8 tones e.g. Byzantine music, ragas, etc.

Yeah - this is totally legit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/72_equal_temperament This article is cool because it has a table of known microtonal tunings/interval splittings.

This whole album was loosely based on microtonal tuning.

Flying Microtonal Banana by King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

LedZep — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 17:26:47 GMT

Author: LedZep

Posted: 03/29/2018 21:26

craola wrote:

isn't the problem with getting this nitpicky with your scales that only a handful of instruments can do this practically (violins, violas, cellos, theremins and a few others)? i mean, you could fret a guitar or tune a piano to a specific scale and be all good, but you can't switch scales without losing some tonality.

as for jack white's album - i am pleasantly surprised. i've not been a white fan... i usually love his lyrics, but i can't stand his pomp, and his music has always sounded so blues-rock-revival to me. but this is different. this is not the jack white i've come to expect and be bored to tears with. so yeah, pleasant suprisal.

Nothing is impossible if you're creative enough 😄

Link

But yes, this is not thread about music theory. For the record, I like the new Jack White record, although not as much as Lazaretto. It's got an interesting vibe and stunning production. Songs aren't on the same level as some of the stuff he's done before, but they're quite good. I think it's pretty oxymoronic though, Jack fighting against technology that's ruining our lives by making his most "technological" album ever. Maybe that was the point, to show that not everything connected to modern technology is necessarily bad.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

PurpleHazel — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 17:04:16 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 03/29/2018 21:04

craola wrote:

In addition to the instruments you named, the double bass, fretless electric bass, trombone, slide trumpet (jazz trumpeter Steven Bernstein usually plays this), pedal steel guitar, fretless guitar (the terrific experimental jazz-rock guitarist Dave Fiuczynski has been playing this almost exclusively for many years), zither, oud and many other non-western instruments are able to play microtones.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

Tap — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 15:55:15 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 03/29/2018 19:55

horse lords latest album used just intonation. I don't think they went full partch with that many notes but it's still really cool.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

YoungPunk — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:42:47 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/29/2018 18:42

craola wrote:

That is exactly the problem, but seeing as this is a thread about the Rock of the future, in which these problems may be resolved, I found it fitting to introduce 😄

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

AAL2014 — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:27:52 GMT

Author: AAL2014

Posted: 03/29/2018 18:27

craola wrote:

as for jack white's album - i am pleasantly surprised. i've not been a white fan... i usually love his lyrics, but i can't stand his pomp, and his music has always sounded so blues-rock-revival to me. but this is different. this is not the jack white i've come to expect and be bored to tears with. so yeah, pleasant suprisal.

Overall pretty much my thoughts as well.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

craola — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:24:49 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 03/29/2018 18:24

LedZep wrote:

It's all a matter of what we call "whole step interval". Microtonal music (used by Simon as already stated, King Gizzard and Radiohead on several songs) has smaller intervals (smaller than semitone) thus more "sounds" (or "notes" although when you say note you usually mean 12 note scale) in an octave. It demands customised equipment if played with typical western culture instruments. It's common in Indian music, also used in blues, gospel etc.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

LedZep — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:17:33 GMT

Author: LedZep

Posted: 03/29/2018 18:17

It's all a matter of what we call "whole step interval". Microtonal music (used by Simon as already stated, King Gizzard and Radiohead on several songs) has smaller intervals (smaller than semitone) thus more "sounds" (or "notes" although when you say note you usually mean 12 note scale) in an octave. It demands customised equipment if played with typical western culture instruments. It's common in Indian music, also used in blues, gospel etc.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

YoungPunk — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:15:07 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/29/2018 18:15

Yeah! Look up Harry Partch!

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

TheHutts — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:54:19 GMT

Author: TheHutts

Posted: 03/29/2018 17:54

Paul Simon used a microtonal scale, with 43 tones in an octave, in his most recent album Stranger to Stranger. The song 'Insomniac's Lullaby' uses instruments that were made by the American composer Harry Partch - the Cloud-Chamber Bowls and the Chromelodeon.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

YoungPunk — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:28:08 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 03/29/2018 17:28

@seth

In western music there are actually 12 tones in a scale, A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#. Count them! In the serial composition I am currently using, you write down each of the 12 tones (as a number) in any order once. An example of a serial composition is

1 4 6 3 2 9 12 11 10 8 5

Now my idea is if you divide the frequencies into 46 notes to achieve just intonation, you can write a song with similar ease, only with numbers going to 46 instead of 12

example

2 44 37 29 8 etc...

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

Anonymous — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:22:08 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/29/2018 17:22

Joe Maneri et al. have used a 72 equal temperament scale, dividing the octave into 72 microtones vs the usual 8 tones in western music. I'd have to verify, but I don't remember it being uncommon for non-western music to have scales divided well beyond 8 tones e.g. Byzantine music, ragas, etc.

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

AAL2014 — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:56:29 GMT

Author: AAL2014

Posted: 03/29/2018 16:56

Thanks for the replies.

Again I definitely did not want to make it seem like I was taking "Rock is Dead" as a serious statement. It was more a critique of people who say it. As sethmadsen said with his brilliant comparison to the Latin language, it's still used, be it sporadic or not, it is still used.

Of course there are countless rock bands out there, but on a large scale, even a lot of the "rock" bands out there are playing a much different style of rock than what might have been the norm even 20 years ago.

Also, sethmadsen, for sure fusion of styles has been going on forever, but I guess this was just to take a closer look at some of the experimentation going on now as opposed to fusions of the past and where we may be heading in the near future.

46 notes in a key?

Re: Jack White's New Album & The State of "Rock" M

RoundTheBend — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 00:30:30 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/29/2018 04:30

Either you know way more about music theory than I do or you are smoking kiwi.

There are 8 notes in any normal octave, regardless of mode (. The tonic, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 7th, and then the high octave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)#Major_modes

12 tone/atonal/serial music was a step past the typical 8 note key and deconstructed other aspects of music theory beyond just the key.

If you can name this new musical feature of 46 notes in a single key, that'd be cool. I guess you'd have to use a bunch of microtones to make it thing? idk...