Best Ever Albums

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:18:51 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/18/2018 02:18

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

Actually Phish is a perfect example of silly lyrics I love.

Not sure if you are aware, but 'Joe's Garage' was in contention for Phish's Halloween musical costume in 1995. Quadrophenia won out instead. Fishman is a big Zappa fan and there is a 'Zappa Picks by Jon Fishman' compilation album from 2002. Here is the tracklist:

Excentrifugal Forz (01:33) - (from Apostrophe ('))
Apostrophe' (05:51) - (from Apostrophe ('))
Magdalena (06:25) - (from Just Another Band From L.A.)
Dog Breath (05:51) - (from Just Another Band From L.A.)
Cheepnis (06:31) - (from Roxy & Elsewhere)
Son Of Orange County (05:54) - (from Roxy & Elsewhere)
More Trouble Every Day (06:01) - (from Roxy & Elsewhere)
It Can't Happen Here (03:55) - (from Freak Out!)
Keep It Greasey (08:22) - (from Joe's Garage Acts II & III)
For Calvin (And His Next Two Hitch-Hikers) (06:06) - (from The Grand Wazoo)
What Ever Happened To All The Fun In The World (00:33) - (from Sheik Yerbouti)
Rat Tomago (05:16) - (from Sheik Yerbouti)
Wait A Minute (00:33) - (from Sheik Yerbouti)
It Just Might Be A One-Shot Deal (04:17) - (from Waka/Jawaka)
I'm The Slime (03:34) - (from Over-Nite Sensation)
Sofa No. 2 (02:43) - (from One Size Fits All)

Ha - that's awesome!

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

SleepDealer — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:04:44 GMT

Author: SleepDealer

Posted: 04/17/2018 20:04

Had a big Zappa phase about 12 years ago... Not everything is to my tastes, but some serious favourites:

Freak Out!, Absolutely Free and We're Only In It For The Money are difficult to separate, but I'd probably start with these three in that order.

Then The Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka alongside Hot Rats

Closely followed by Burnt Weeny Sandwich and Over Nite Sensation.

Couldn't really get into Weasels Ripped My Flesh and Uncle Meat. Just not my thing.

Haven't heard any others, and am not really interested in going through his later output, but would highly recommend the biography of Zappa by Barry Miles - plenty of great insights.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:33:28 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/17/2018 05:33

Quote:

Actually Phish is a perfect example of silly lyrics I love.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:55:03 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/17/2018 04:55

Quote:

The kindest reading I can give the song is that Zappa is satirizing 1970's fears that women's liberation movements are inherently emasculating...but again, I'm not sure if succeeds in the satire.

I guess I think of Bobby Brown as more absurd humor, like it's 1979 and we live in a world where this guy could exist. Isn't that fucking crazy folks? If I gain any meaning, it might be that it's often the most privileged in childhood that "sort of drift" into various extreme activities later in life to try and fill some empty hole in their heart. Instead of S&M and golden showers, it could of been opiate addiction or wingsuit survivor. The fact that Bobby is gay and Freddie is a lesbian is kind of irrelevant. Maybe I'm just projecting my 2018 liberal mindset on the song, but in my opinion that is what good lyrics allow.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:42:49 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/17/2018 04:42

Thanks Brent!

Actually Phish is a perfect example of silly lyrics I love. You've got me convinced I really do need to give Mr. Zappa's music another shot. He already has my respect on multiple levels (he paid for some of my music education), but I was easy to dismiss his music cause it was about Jewish princess orgasms and the such.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:35:14 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/17/2018 03:35

I have been trying to defend Zappa's lyrics, but it's really just an attempt to help people initially "get past" the lyrics to the often sublime music.

When I first started listening to Zappa I would skip the raunchy or "silly" tracks in favor of the instrumental and mature ones. It took me a while to realize that many of the tracks I was skipping had just as wonderful melodies, funky grooves, and tight, complex changes that give me the chills. The underlying music and lyrical context helped me begin to tolerate and eventually even appreciate a lot of the lyrics, even the offensive ones.

This is my first discussion on BEA after using the site for many years. It took a thread about Zappa and comments about his lyrics to get me to speak up. I think it's because some artists I love, like Zappa, Ween and Phish don't receive as much respect as I think they deserve. And I get tired of their fans apologising for their lyrics. Most of us don't love these artists despite the lyrics. The lyrics have become so integral to the music that we can't imagine their music without it.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RichardSauce — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 23:10:01 GMT

Author: RichardSauce

Posted: 04/17/2018 03:10

brent13 wrote:

I think story arc of popular pretty boy evolving to be a sad pathetic sexual deviant is a lot funnier and understandable after one is old enough to have had a variety of life experiences. One of the constants of Zappa's music and lyrics is there is no line to be crossed. It's just in our heads. Lyrics are just words. "Words are just words" as he famously argued on CNN's Crossfire.

I think the crux of the song is more along the lines of a football player rapist getting his balls literally crushed by feminist "dyke," which turns him into a "homo." The kindest reading I can give the song is that Zappa is satirizing 1970's fears that women's liberation movements are inherently emasculating...but again, I'm not sure if succeeds in the satire.

As for words just being words....I tend disagree with that too. Words have meaning, in fact that's the entire point of words. Meanings are associational, contextual, but they carry weight and have impact, especially when introduced through mass media.

In any case, it's funny, in many ways I consider Zappa a forerunner of the South Park style of humor/satire, and I mean that as both a compliment and as a reprimand. Their philosophies are remarkably similar, and I feel both often had points behind their scatological and transgressive humor, I just don't always agree with those points, or find the delivery effective.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:21:40 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/17/2018 01:21

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

I've always treated music as something sacred

Interesting that one of Frank's most well known quotes about music happens to be in 'Packard Goose' on Joe's Garage:

“Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST.”

Well said.

I'm first to admit I know very little of Zappa and was first to say I immensely respect the dude, but from the 4 albums I listened to twice at most, I was put off by the silliness or over the top stuff and things. It appears I either need to just read his lyrics (likely skipping over a good chunk?) to find amazing nuggets like that.

And it's odd, I'm also appreciative of some silly music... humor in music... nothing wrong with it, somehow his was offputting. I mean if I can appreciate They Might Be Giants or RHCP, how is it I can't appreciate Zappa? Maybe I'm setting too high a bar... dunno. Just rubbed me the wrong way when I tried to get into it.

I REALLY appreciate you pointing out the finer points. Seriously. Thanks. I'll need to revisit this thread when I evaluate music from 60s, and onward.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:04:13 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/16/2018 05:04

Quote:

I've always treated music as something sacred

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 23:06:09 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/16/2018 03:06

brent13 wrote:

Why did you stop at Act I? If you didn't like Act I, then you probably won't like Act II as it's pretty raunchy with Joe joining the Church of Appliantology founded by L. Ron Hoover, where he is encouraged to have sex with robot appliances and is eventually thrown in prison for playing rock music. It's a pretty weird story, but there is outstanding and complex music throughout. Act III is quite sublime after Joe gets out of prison ending with three of my all time favorite Zappa songs: 'Packard Goose', 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' and 'A Little Green Rosetta'.

Honestly the 4 Zappa albums I listened to were during a decade dive.

So I listened to them all the way through and they didn't leave me wanting.

Perhaps I would have appreciated Zappa as a writer or movie producer because that sounds great. I've always treated music as something sacred, so metal bands or Zappa doing stuff like you explained above, doesn't really sound like something I'd like in music, but nearly any other medium, I'd love. Strange... (it's me... haha).

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 21:35:34 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/16/2018 01:35

I think story arc of popular pretty boy evolving to be a sad pathetic sexual deviant is a lot funnier and understandable after one is old enough to have had a variety of life experiences. One of the constants of Zappa's music and lyrics is there is no line to be crossed. It's just in our heads. Lyrics are just words. "Words are just words" as he famously argued on CNN's Crossfire.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RichardSauce — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 21:13:27 GMT

Author: RichardSauce

Posted: 04/16/2018 01:13

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

I haven't evaluated everything Mr. Zappa did, but from what I did listen to, it just seemed more like scatological humor

I'd consider it to be satirical more than scatological. Zappa satirizes hippies, televangelists, Scientology, rock groupies, disc jockeys, rock music writers, President Nixon, and a host of others. Yes, he can be raunchy when joking about bodily fluids and sexual devices, but I think it is far more absurdist than juvenile and compliments the often absurd music. "I can take about an hour on the Tower of Power as long as I gets a little golden shower" is too clever for kids. I'll admit that I have to be in the right mood to listen to Zappa, but when I do I am rarely disappointed.

I would disagree that the lyrics to Bobby Brown are too clever for kids, in fact I would call them downright juvenile, like a lot of his other humor. Look, I know Zappa was an intelligent and iconoclastic man, but too much of his humor post-Mothers was intentionally juvenile, low brow, and otherwise troubling.

As for satire....sure, I think that was often times his intent, but the problem with satire is the constant line you have to walk between between satirizing and just replicating what you intend to satirize, and I don't think he was very good at walking it. Nor do I think he was always coming from a place satire, sometimes he just found that stuff funny.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:57:44 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/16/2018 00:57

Why did you stop at Act I? If you didn't like Act I, then you probably won't like Act II as it's pretty raunchy with Joe joining the Church of Appliantology founded by L. Ron Hoover, where he is encouraged to have sex with robot appliances and is eventually thrown in prison for playing rock music. It's a pretty weird story, but there is outstanding and complex music throughout. Act III is quite sublime after Joe gets out of prison ending with three of my all time favorite Zappa songs: 'Packard Goose', 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' and 'A Little Green Rosetta'.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 18:27:40 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/15/2018 22:27

brent13 wrote:

Here are just a few:

Son of Orange County - Roxy & Elsewhere
Cosmik Debris - Apostrophe!
Uncle Remus - Apostrophe!
Camarillo Brillo - Overnight Sensation
Flakes - Sheik Yerbouti
Bobby Brown Goes Downtown - Sheik Yerbouti
The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing - You Are What You Is
Dumb All Over - You Are What You Is
Heavenly Bank Account - You Are What You Is

oh, and all of Joe's Garage. It is a concept album satirizing the overall direction of music, religion, and government in the late 70s, and includes probably the first satire of Scientology.

Much appreciated. Out of all of that, I only listened to Joe's Garage Pt. 1, so glad you pointed out these!

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:57:06 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/15/2018 21:57

Here are just a few:

Son of Orange County - Roxy & Elsewhere
Cosmik Debris - Apostrophe!
Uncle Remus - Apostrophe!
Camarillo Brillo - Overnight Sensation
Flakes - Sheik Yerbouti
Bobby Brown Goes Downtown - Sheik Yerbouti
The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing - You Are What You Is
Dumb All Over - You Are What You Is
Heavenly Bank Account - You Are What You Is

oh, and all of Joe's Garage. It is a concept album satirizing the overall direction of music, religion, and government in the late 70s, and includes probably the first satire of Scientology.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 17:02:43 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/15/2018 21:02

brent13 wrote:

Quote:

I haven't evaluated everything Mr. Zappa did, but from what I did listen to, it just seemed more like scatological humor

I've gathered that from his interviews, but have yet to hear it in the music, any examples?

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:59:21 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/15/2018 20:59

Quote:

I haven't evaluated everything Mr. Zappa did, but from what I did listen to, it just seemed more like scatological humor

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RoundTheBend — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:06:59 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/15/2018 20:06

brent13 wrote:

I never understood the dislike for humor in music. That is like saying humor doesn't belong in love.

Humor totally belongs in music.

It's the type of humor. Fart jokes aren't really that funny.

I find the quirkiness or Maxwell's Silver Hammer or this lyric from Paul Simon much more funny, clever. I haven't evaluated everything Mr. Zappa did, but from what I did listen to, it just seemed more like scatological humor, which has it's place and in rare instances I find funny too, but meh, most of the time that's something I left when I left middle school.

"All my life, I've been a wanderer... (dramatic singing)
Not really, I've mostly lived in my parents home."
- Paul Simon.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

RichardSauce — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:06:29 GMT

Author: RichardSauce

Posted: 04/15/2018 20:06

brent13 wrote:

I never understood the dislike for humor in music. That is like saying humor doesn't belong in love.

Oh, I like a lot of humorous music. Just not his. Usually.

Re: Top 5 Frank Zappa Album Discussion/ The "Big Song"

brent13 — Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:29:50 GMT

Author: brent13

Posted: 04/15/2018 19:29

I never understood the dislike for humor in music. That is like saying humor doesn't belong in love.

My current top 5.

1. Joe's Garage - Act I, II & III
2. You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol 2 - The Helsinki Concert
3. Apostrophe!
4. Hot Rats
5. The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life