Best Ever Albums

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

CA Dreamin — Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:10:21 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 06/09/2018 16:10

bobbyb5 wrote:

I just realized that many of the Westerns on my list lean toward comedy. Maybe not so much comedy as humorous or amusing. And westerns are usually so deadly serious. In most other genres I tend to have the same taste as everybody else, but in westerns not so much. I think the reason the Western isn't one of my favorite genres is because I usually don't find the subject matter very interesting. I'm not sure why, because the Western is actually a pretty diverse genre. When I was young I used to think that westerns were all the same, but that's actually not true at all. I think it's just that I don't find the Old West a particularly interesting topic. And maybe humor makes it more interesting to me or something.

I agree with most of this.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

CA Dreamin — Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:08:13 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 06/09/2018 16:08

badseed wrote:

No. It'll never die. It will never thrive like it once did. Honestly if you could put a time stamp on it, the golden age of westerns died when John Wayne did. Even Clint Eastwood only made a couple more after that point. But there will still be a handful per year, and perhaps one or two of those will be something great. Same deal with musicals. They aren't nearly as big as they were from the 30s to the 60s but every couple years one comes along that everyone adores, and that's enough to prove the genre is alive and well. If nothing worthy of making this list comes out in the next five years, ask that question again.

I recall people talking about the Western being dead in the late-90s and early-00s, a time period which had no representative on our list. But then a couple good ones came along, and like badseed said, we get a few per year now. It's interesting how he calls Wayne's death the end of the golden age. Was that the point where the quantity and quality of Westerns declined? It seems so, although I consider the '50s and '60s the golden age. But sure, Wayne's death must've been a huge symbolic blow to the genre. I don't think the genre will ever fully die out. However, as a big-budget attraction, I think it could. In the past five years, Lone Ranger, Hateful Eight, and A Million Ways to Die in the West weren't nearly as popular as the studios expected. But the remake of Magnificent Seven did okay for itself. As did The Revenant, however that was fueled by a very popular cast/director and the Oscar race. But anyway...the Western isn't in a very good position right now, but still better than it was in the late-90s...Wild Wild West 🕺

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

bobbyb5 — Sat, 9 Jun 2018 07:04:16 GMT

Author: bobbyb5

Posted: 06/09/2018 11:04

badseed wrote:

Nah. I just think these things have turned into a "discuss minimally before making list/pat ourselves on the back when we're done" kinda thing. I can't recall the last time we did a list where the feedback was anything other than "surprised this is here" and "surprised this isn't here" (perhaps the horror list which I gave a really good roasting and had some legit arguments). And in this case, aside from a few aforementioned unexpected films (most of which I haven't seen, so can't really discuss if they deserve placement), I think this is around about what we were expecting to get. Maybe not the Ford domination as these boards tend to sway towards a more modern, indie or avant-garde style. Then again there weren't many lists this time and the ones that didn't go the traditional route were fairly small, so maybe the younger/less experienced crowd sat this one out altogether. Anyhow, El Topo did pretty good, am I right? I was thinking it had a shot to crack the top 30 maybe but it was bangin all the way through this one.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Sat, 9 Jun 2018 00:48:50 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/09/2018 04:48

StreetSpirit wrote:

Well it doesn't have to be that way. One of the potential discussion points we never got to is "Is the Western dead?"

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

CA Dreamin — Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:08:46 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 06/08/2018 16:08

badseed wrote:

Nah. I just think these things have turned into a "discuss minimally before making list/pat ourselves on the back when we're done" kinda thing.

Well it doesn't have to be that way. One of the potential discussion points we never got to is "Is the Western dead?"

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Fri, 8 Jun 2018 08:05:18 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/08/2018 12:05

hereforashortime wrote:

I would love an action movie list sometime.

Honestly surprised we haven't done that yet. Used to not be keen on the idea. Action was (maybe still is) my least favorite genre. But damn I like them a lot more than I used to, and I think that's helped by the fact that Marvel is such a juggernaut now and has finally got me pumped for superhero movies, which (Dark Knight trilogy aside) I used to just not really look forward to. Not saying they own the game. Just this decade we've seen so much brilliance, from the grindhouse-esque 13 Assassins, The Expendables and John Wick, to solid entries in big franchises like Star Wars, Mission Impossible and 007 and even more comic book greatness with Deadpool, Logan and Wonderwoman... And of course Fury Road, which may or may not have surpassed Terminator 2 as the GOAT in my opinion... Yeah just looking at this decade alone I'm sure we would have an awesome list.

Note: I suppose a lot of westerns would fall under the action banner. Obviously (at least in my case) the amount of action that takes place in them would determine how well it hangs against other action movies. For example, the Man with No Name trilogy would definitely still make my list. The talkier, slower paced Once Upon a Time in the West probably would not.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Fri, 8 Jun 2018 07:43:41 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/08/2018 11:43

StreetSpirit wrote:

Okay maybe the Western is dead.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

CA Dreamin — Thu, 7 Jun 2018 18:46:58 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 06/07/2018 22:46

Okay maybe the Western is dead.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

hereforashortime — Thu, 7 Jun 2018 17:20:35 GMT

Author: hereforashortime

Posted: 06/07/2018 21:20

I would love an action movie list sometime.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Thu, 7 Jun 2018 03:56:50 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/07/2018 07:56

I added a poll out of interest. Not official or anything, as I don't plan on hosting another for a while. If there's interest in a horror re-do I'm down to do that one around October but wouldn't be hurt if someone else wanted to host it or if the consensus is not to do it yet. Just curious what you guys think would be fun to do next.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

CA Dreamin — Tue, 5 Jun 2018 12:33:58 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 06/05/2018 16:33

The Western isn't dead.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:34:27 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/03/2018 05:34

PurpleHazel wrote:

Grapes of Wrath and Stagecoach are without question two of Ford's most famous films, and do very well in mainstream U.S. lists like the AFI ones. But in the international critics polls, which tend to be more academic, apparently Liberty Valance does quite well.

The They Shoot Pictures Don't They? John Ford rankings:

1. The Searchers
2. Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The
3. My Darling Clementine
4. Stagecoach
5. Grapes of Wrath, The
6. Quiet Man, The
7. How Green Was My Valley
8. Wagon Master
9. Young Mr. Lincoln
10. She Wore a Yellow Ribbon

As you know, this poll is an extensive poll of polls, though it's heavily weighted toward the Sight & Sound critic's poll. Of course these polls change over time but the top 2 or 3 are the ones likely to shift least.

Filmsite is AMC. I don't know enough about them to know how they calculate their lists.

I don't think they "calculate" anything. They seem like a blend between AFI and Roger Ebert. Pretty uninspiring as far as their opinions on what's best go but the facts presented in many of the subsections (which include everything from the history of Film Noir to a guide to every important sex scene) are very informative.

Haven't checked out TSPDT yet this year. Suppose I need to see what's changed.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

PurpleHazel — Sun, 3 Jun 2018 00:17:11 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/03/2018 04:17

badseed wrote:

Wasn't aware that Liberty Valance has moved up for those (legit imo) sources. Filmsite.org, though primarily based in American film, is a source I've used and if I remember correctly, they have five Ford films in their "100 greatest American films" list: The Searchers, Stagecoach, My Darling Clementine, The Grapes of Wrath and The Quiet Man. I would at least confidently say Searchers and Grapes are his two big films, but Liberty Valance definitely deserves to be in the conversation.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

badseed — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 23:03:18 GMT

Author: badseed

Posted: 06/03/2018 03:03

Wasn't aware that Liberty Valance has moved up for those (legit imo) sources. Filmsite.org, though primarily based in American film, is a source I've used and if I remember correctly, they have five Ford films in their unranked "100 greatest American films" list: The Searchers, Stagecoach, My Darling Clementine, The Grapes of Wrath and The Quiet Man. I would at least confidently say Searchers and Grapes are his two big films, but Liberty Valance definitely deserves to be in the conversation. I do feel like I base too much of my perception on consensus from 2001-2005, when I was absorbing the most knowledge from the internet, whereas today I don't really pay attention to anything or do any research except for the occasional cult or foreign film. Things change over time. Back then Jurassic Park was absolutely not a consensus top 5 Spielberg film, perhaps not even top 10. Today it's a masterpiece. I suppose Liberty Valance could have gone through the same transition. Totally deserved on both films' part.

Regarding whether the original True Grit deserves placement, I expected it to be there, probably not top 50 buy definitely expected it on the list. There are a few surprises near the bottom, some of which I haven't seen. So yeah, in their place I was expecting True Grit, Cat Ballou, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, perhaps even The Wind and Go West.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

PurpleHazel — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:31:19 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/02/2018 23:31

StreetSpirit wrote:

Which cinephile site are you talking about?

CriterionForum.org. This was their top 20:

criterionforum wrote:

THE WESTERN LIST (GENRE PROJECT) TOP 100

01 Man of the West (Anthony Mann 1958) 521
02 Rio Bravo (Howard Hawks 1959) 494
03 Once Upon a Time in the West (Sergio Leone 1968) 486
04 Red River (Howard Hawks 1948) 444
05 Johnny Guitar (Nicholas Ray 1954) 424
06 My Darling Clementine (John Ford 1946) 415
07 the Searchers (John Ford 1956) 404
08 the Good, the Bad and the Ugly (Sergio Leone 1966) 400
09 Winchester '73 (Anthony Mann 1950) 398
10 McCabe and Mrs Miller (Robert Altman 1971) 397

11 the Wild Bunch (Sam Peckinpah 1969) 377
12 the Naked Spur (Anthony Mann 1953) 346
13 Stagecoach (John Ford 1939) 344
14 Forty Guns (Samuel Fuller 1953) 303
15 Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (John Ford 1962) 291
16 Ride the High Country (Sam Peckinpah 1962) 283
17 Yellow Sky (William A Wellman 1948) 265
18 Little Big Man (Arthur Penn 1970) 256
19 Dead Man (Jim Jarmusch 1995) 240
20 Heaven's Gate (Michael Cimino 1980) 235

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

bobbyb5 — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:31:10 GMT

Author: bobbyb5

Posted: 06/02/2018 23:31

PurpleHazel wrote:

Rancho Notorious is damn good. Directed by Fritz Lang, noirish, lively plot with lots of good ideas. Of the 5 westerns I watched for the first time, I liked it second best, and there wasn't a bad one in the lot.

And Marlene Dietrich sings an awesome saloon number too!!! Heh heh.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

PurpleHazel — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:23:13 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/02/2018 23:23

bobbyb5 wrote:

I thought for sure none of my more weirdo choices would make the final cut.. and then at the last minute somebody posted a last-minute list, and sure enough, there was Rancho Notorious. Even though it was my number 2 choice, that wasn't enough points to get it into the top 100. But with the late addition by somebody else, it earned enough points to sneak into the top 100. At number 99. Ha ha. My number one choice didn't make it at all though.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

bobbyb5 — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 17:03:55 GMT

Author: bobbyb5

Posted: 06/02/2018 21:03

I thought for sure none of my more weirdo choices would make the final cut.. and then at the last minute somebody posted a last-minute list, and sure enough, there was Rancho Notorious. Even though it was my number 2 choice, that wasn't enough points to get it into the top 100. But with the late addition by somebody else, it earned enough points to sneak into the top 100. At number 99. Ha ha. My number one choice didn't make it at all though.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

PurpleHazel — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:26:20 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/02/2018 19:26

StreetSpirit wrote:

I won't argue with those who feel it doesn't belong at all (as long as you've actually seen it).

Even though it didn't make my final list, I wouldn't go as far to say it doesn't belong at all. There are movies that made the list that aren't as good.

Re: Best Ever Western Films [LIST]

PurpleHazel — Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:09:03 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/02/2018 19:09

badseed wrote:

Honestly I thought Leone would beat out Ford on this thing but I was wrong.

Thought TGTB&TU would be #1 and Revenant would be in the top 10.

Quote:

Some people out there that are put off by certain political aspects of The Searchers.

The ambiguity of whether Wayne's a hero or an antihero and his racism are the main reasons the film's so great (and has its exalted rep). It's just that one awful scene with Jeffrey Hunter kicking the squaw that's repugnant.

Quote:

Liberty Valance I'm not quite as shocked about, even though it's generally speaking not considered top 3-5 Ford

The Sight & Sound and TSPDT? polls have it at #2 among Ford films. #1 for me.

Quote:

Neo-Westerns didn't dominate as I once expected. That's mainly thanks to Gowi and I, who were the only users with a top 100, not including them. You can also thank us (and Chief) for basically any non-Leone spaghetti western making it.

I only voted for a couple of neo-westerns that came out before 1965, and ones that wouldn't garner many votes. I voted for two non-Leone spaghetti westerns, so I did my modest part.