Best Ever Albums

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:52:48 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 12/20/2018 19:52

Added Stabscotch's stunning Uncanny Valley. Will not be surprised if I upgrade it to 8.5 but want to be more sure first (one way or the other).

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:01:14 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 12/17/2018 04:01

Holy crap, has anyone heard Stabscotch's Uncanny Valley!?!?

I have been listening to it today after finding out Scaruffi gave it an 8/10.

He might be underrating it though. Incredible sprawling monster-piece. I don't know what my own rating will be yet (at the moment it seems like an 8.5) ...as there is an absurd amount of material to acclimate to (100+ minutes!! ...and all of it quite creative), but it will surely be added here once I make a decision. HIGHLY recommended (but only to those that can handle very intense, highly unpredictable music that is quite experimental for 100+ motherf***ing minutes: cross between Pyrrhon and Pere Ubu might be the most concise -- though not truly adequate -- comparison).

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:42:28 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 12/12/2018 06:42

DelBocaVista wrote:

Hey any thoughts on...

Bleach
Temple of the Dog
Aerosmith (Toys, Rocks, and Pump)
Jane's Addiction's "Nothing's Shocking"
Deep Purple (In Rock or Machine Head)
Free's "Fire and Water"
Jeff Beck's "Truth"
Blue Cheer's "Vincebus Eruptum"
Frijid Pink

Bleach is Nirvana at its punkiest and most spontaneous. Sometimes its my favorite album of theirs, but I generally go with a 6.5. Temple of the Dog is one that I may add to the 7s. All 3 of the Aerosmith's have a very good shot at being added -- need to revisit. Similar potential with Deep Purple and Blue Cheer. Jane's Addiction should definitely be included (revisit). Have I heard Fire and Water? Ill have to check... Dont believe Ive ever heard Frijid Pink...

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

DelBocaVista — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:22:56 GMT

Author: DelBocaVista

Posted: 12/12/2018 02:22

Hey any thoughts on...

Bleach
Temple of the Dog
Aerosmith (Toys, Rocks, and Pump)
Jane's Addiction's "Nothing's Shocking"
Deep Purple (In Rock or Machine Head)
Free's "Fire and Water"
Jeff Beck's "Truth"
Blue Cheer's "Vincebus Eruptum"
Frijid Pink

Re: Recs

AfterHours — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:31:06 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/25/2018 16:31

[quote="Amirkhosro"]

AfterHours wrote:

Thanks! Im not familiar with a few of those. If you check out my overall list, Atomizer, Goat, At Action Park all rate quite highly but I havent decided if they should end up here or a future list (or maybe both). Similar with Fugazi and Hash Jar Tempo/Montgomery/Bardo Pond. Red is one Ive never rated though should probably be on my 7.3+ list and a future genre one centered around Prog.

Amirkhosro wrote:

Thanks, my interest is sparked! Always looking for peak examples of different varieties/culminations of expression/creativity. Also re: Capt Beefheart <-- on the "Blues" genre list. Doc might join them upon a revisit 😄

Amirkhosro wrote:

Oh and I can't believe that there's ton of comments about the freaking BEATLES on this list. I think they're great but there's no reason to assume that everybody MUST think they're great or any good at all. And it's not like people will forget all about the poor obscure Beatles if you give Revolver 5/10 or something.

No big deal, I don't mind discussing it (though I feel there are far more interesting albums/artists to discuss), and when the discussion sometimes gets too impulsive/out of hand, Seth and I tend to resolve things as needed.

I moved it over to my criteria page where we've also discussed the worst album ever made, Appetite for Destruction 🤣

Re: Recs

Amirkhosro — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:19:21 GMT

Author: Amirkhosro

Posted: 11/25/2018 16:19

AfterHours wrote:

The last 3 albums might be way more interesting to you as I don't think I've seen you mention them anywhere. Some of the finest heavy depressive rock music that I've ever heard. Makes a fantastic counterpart to the dark morbid indie rock of people such as Mark Lanegan, RHP and Nick Cave. These guys display such a poetic attention to detail that it completely separates them from both the usual prog and the usual heavy metal music that we often hear.

Oh and I can't believe that there's ton of comments about the freaking BEATLES on this list. I think they're great but there's no reason to assume that everybody MUST think they're great or any good at all. And it's not like people will forget all about the poor obscure Beatles if you give Revolver 5/10 or something.

Re: Recs

AfterHours — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 10:47:24 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/25/2018 15:47

Amirkhosro wrote:

Some suggestions off the top of my head. Not all of them fall under the classic heavy metal/hard rock definitions but they're all very heavy nevertheless:

Dopesmoker by Sleep

Goat by The Jesus Lizard

At Action Park by Shellac

Welcome To Sky Valley by Kyuss

Atomizer by Big Black

Red by King Crimson

In On The Kill Taker by Fugazi

Under Glass by Hash Jar Tempo

Doc At The Radar Station by Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band

Brave Murder Day by Katatonia

Alternative 4 by Anathema

Deadwing by Porcupine Tree

Recs

Amirkhosro — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:53:30 GMT

Author: Amirkhosro

Posted: 11/25/2018 14:53

Some suggestions off the top of my head. Not all of them fall under the classic heavy metal/hard rock definitions but they're all very heavy nevertheless:

Dopesmoker by Sleep

Goat by The Jesus Lizard

At Action Park by Shellac

Welcome To Sky Valley by Kyuss

Atomizer by Big Black

Red by King Crimson

In On The Kill Taker by Fugazi

Under Glass by Hash Jar Tempo

Doc At The Radar Station by Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band

Brave Murder Day by Katatonia

Alternative 4 by Anathema

Deadwing by Porcupine Tree

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

Amirkhosro — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:07:33 GMT

Author: Amirkhosro

Posted: 11/25/2018 14:07

badseed wrote:

I think Kill Em All is Metallica's best album personally. It's so raw and heavy compared to everything that came after it.

I second that. It's like the distilled juice of their legendary early power. Big fan of its Ramones-esque application of sufficient precision. Nothing gets in the way of enjoyment. Even James doesn't sound remotely annoying or idiotic despite all the alcoholic induced lyrics celebrating barbaric teenage anger, which only add to the undeniability of the emotion and energy.

Their collab with Lou Reed is my other favorite Metallica album. But that's a whole other story.

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 01:49:25 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/25/2018 06:49

Tha1ChiefRocka wrote:

If that's the case, then make sure to check out (if you haven't heard)

Salt Lick by Tad

One of the more underappreciated acts from Washington.

And this might qualify for you as well. Most places classify it as "noise rock" though.

Heroin Man by Cherubs

Thanks Chief -- haven't heard either 😄

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

Tha1ChiefRocka — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 01:41:53 GMT

Author: Tha1ChiefRocka

Posted: 11/25/2018 06:41

If that's the case, then make sure to check out (if you haven't heard)

Salt Lick by Tad

One of the more underappreciated acts from Washington.

And this might qualify for you as well. Most places classify it as "noise rock" though.

Heroin Man by Cherubs

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 01:23:19 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/25/2018 06:23

Now adding Hard Rock (which includes Grunge, which is basically Hard Rock + Heavy Metal + Punk).

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Sat, 24 Nov 2018 11:28:27 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/24/2018 16:28

@seth

Will be moving this convo over to my criteria page. Its more applicable plus thats where our previous discussion on such matters was taking place and thats where Ill first post my essential points re: VU and Nico, and probably The Doors too (I may post these elsewhere such as on their comments pages and The VU one on your page that asks to compare with Sgt Pepper).

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

RoundTheBend — Sat, 24 Nov 2018 02:21:28 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 11/24/2018 07:21

I have things to say, but life... (perhaps at another date and we really should move this thread elsewhere, unless you really don't care)... I feel terrible that like 8 pages of a metal thread are about The Beatles... ahahahaha.

Also I suppose this is where I'm confused. Their absolute best musters up to a G and F'in R album? (assuming the 8 I saw assigned to them earlier is equating the same scale). GnR is the basest of nearly all music ever made from the aspects you gave me to measure The Beatles against. Please truly sell me on how you and Scaruffi can equate Beatles to GNR and Limp Bizkit (besides the argument they are basically the Monkees/average pop music... cause if that's your argument then you clearly haven't assimilated The Beatles like you think you have... you may have found their best tracks - which by the way, those were some great selections... missing some other important musical/emotional/intellectual tracks, but good selection nonetheless).

I disagree with the sentiment that The Beatles best album is lost in the midst of other average works, but I can agree with it's not the single greatest work of art with the utmost extreme examples of the work they played in. But holistically and for a good 3-4 year stint, they did way more than VU&N did (from my experience, even with their tour with Andy Warhol and the concepts developed there (I didn't know this but I guess he didn't actually produce the album... he more or less was interested in the visual aspect of the tour, not the musical aspect and spent nearly no time with the band in the studio). I look forward to your insights on VU&N from a perspective that matches the claim they did something better than anyone else ever even claim to in the history of all music (and perhaps surrounding your critieria you gave earlier for The Beatles)... shit I already wrote more than I anticipated. It's late and I have to wake early... but music teases my soul until I eventually fall asleep.

Nearly disregard this ramble - stream of consciousness and all. Perhaps should have just posted this: 🤔

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:59:44 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/23/2018 21:59

Facetious wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Seriously though, I dont know of any great albums by the Monkees, but I rate 2 Beatles albums as "superb/borderline extraordinary" (Abbey Rd, Sgt Pepper), 1 a notch below but still excellent (White Album, 6.5/10), and another (MMT, 6/10). The Beatles were far better artists.

Didn't you have Revolver at 6/6.5?

Maybe... It generally sits around 5.5, sometimes 6. I think I did upgrade it to 6.5 once, tentatively. But then I revisited lots of 7s, The Beatles career, and the careers of several pop artists, and realized that 5.5ish, maybe 6, is more accurate.

As an aside, Revolver has some good songs but any idea it's an all time masterpiece is easily demonstrated to be logical fallacy when -- if given the choice -- pretty much anyone would replace almost every song by a better Beatles song in the same vein (not to mention other artists' songs). How can it be 10/10 when it's not even close to a collection of their best material throughout? Doesn't make sense. For 3 min (TNK) it does approach greatness, but the other 30+ is hit and miss, pretty good or just okay.

The following would be their masterpiece, if it existed. Track listing as follows:

1. Tomorrow Never Knows
2. I am the Walrus
3. Strawberry Fields Forever
4. Within You Without You
5. While My Guitar Gently Weeps
6. Happiness is a Warm Gun
7. Abbey Road Medley: You Never Give Me Your Money; Sun King; Mean Mr Mustard; Polythene Pam; She Came in Through The Bathroom Window; Golden Slumbers; Carry That Weight; The End
8. A Day in the Life
9. Revolution 9

This is WAY better than any of their proper albums. Probably 8-8.5/10?

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

Facetious — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:30:18 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 11/23/2018 20:30

AfterHours wrote:

Didn't you have Revolver at 6/6.5?

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 20:29:37 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/23/2018 01:29

sethmadsen wrote:

Yeah - I'd love to hear why VU&N or The Doors are really that much of a step above. A 90 and 70 are massive differences and I really just don't see that. If you were comparing like The Loovin' Spoonful, The Monkees (sometimes I think you think The Monkees and The Beatles are basically the same band), or even Quicksilver Messanger Service, conversation would be over. Of course it'd be a waste of time to not give comparisons and use a lot of "fluff" if that makes any sense. If you think it uses a certain technique that nobody else has ever used (more technically proficient or better composition than anyone else in the late 60s... by leaps and bounds), point it out, define it, and give examples that can't be refuted. If you'd like, participate in the game I created for this purpose. I'd love to see the breakdown of each and why it is rated as such.

Yep, uses their means (technically, compositionally) to much more profound, emotionally meaningful ends than most 60s artists, and yes, much more than the Beatles ... or is it the Monkees? 🤣

Seriously though, I dont know of any great albums by the Monkees, but I rate 2 Beatles albums as "superb/borderline extraordinary" (Abbey Rd, Sgt Pepper), 1 a notch below but still excellent (White Album, 6.5/10), and another (MMT, 6/10). The Beatles were far better artists.

Not that VU and Beatles are directly comparable at all -- completely different artists with very different expressive purposes. But yes, the resultant impact of VU and Nico (if assimilated) is far more powerful and profound than Sgt Pepper or almost any album in history. And I will point out the essential aspects to this. And anyone that cares to listen for and truly observe and assimilate these aspects will very likely see where I am coming from.

sethmadsen wrote:

By the way if you were to just say, hey, this is my subjective opinion, I'd totally drop all of this and just respect. It seems you have an argument that seems your opinion aligns with objectivity, so we'll need some rules of objectivity and logic to finish this conversation. We can't have subjective arguments of "they are good... or even they are good because they use emotion better." And to be honest I'm not sure what level of objectivity we can establish (probably hence both of our frustrations). I suppose we'd have to write like a 20 page paper with a clearly stated thesis statement and road map to truly argue these points and each argument needs to tie to something clearly demonstrated and back to the thesis.

I think we already cleared this up with our most recent replies

sethmadsen wrote:

If you just give a review similar to what Scaruffi does, well then you'd be wasting both of our time as I don't feel he gives a foundation for most of his claims other than just trust him. And I keep bringing up Limp Bizkit because if he can equate Limp Bizkit to the same level of Sgt. Pepper, it's additionally easy to flip the bozo bit on him. That's just ludicrous.

Scaruffi warns readers such as yourself that you are unlikely to get what he means in any one review out of relation/proportion to the rest of his work. I suppose its not dissimilar to my tendency to warn others that my selections will make more and more sense in proportion to one's experience with them as a whole. And this is quite true.

It's maybe impossible to cover what is essential to VU and Nico without some imitation of one of the few to accurately describe what was expressively substantial about the work in such a precise and informed manner. I will be pointing various aspects out that have probably been missed if one doesn't consider it among the most amazing and profound albums of all time.

I guess the Limp Bizkit thing would matter if you feel like the Beatles were the greatest Rock/Pop artists ever, or their 7/10s were really 10/10s like most critics do. But Scaruffi views them as rather unsubstantial so probably didnt even think twice about the similar scores. As an example, I think Lorde's Pure Heroine is just as great as the best the Beatles ever did and I dont think this is an odd statement or feels off at all because I dont think the Beatles made music that was even close to unsurpassable and have heard so much Rock, Jazz and Classical that is much much better that their stature doesnt carry any further meaning for me like it tends to do for their dedicated fans.

sethmadsen wrote:

EDIT: I find this applicable from David Foster Wallace:
Here's another didactic little story. There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: "Look, it's not like I don't have actual reasons for not believing in God. It's not like I haven't ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out 'Oh, God, if there is a God, I'm lost in this blizzard, and I'm gonna die if you don't help me.'" And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. "Well then you must believe now," he says, "After all, here you are, alive." The atheist just rolls his eyes. "No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp."

It's easy to run this story through kind of a standard liberal arts analysis: the exact same experience can mean two totally different things to two different people, given those people's two different belief templates and two different ways of constructing meaning from experience. Because we prize tolerance and diversity of belief, nowhere in our liberal arts analysis do we want to claim that one guy's interpretation is true and the other guy's is false or bad. Which is fine, except we also never end up talking about just where these individual templates and beliefs come from. Meaning, where they come from INSIDE the two guys. As if a person's most basic orientation toward the world, and the meaning of his experience were somehow just hard-wired, like height or shoe-size; or automatically absorbed from the culture, like language. As if how we construct meaning were not actually a matter of personal, intentional choice. Plus, there's the whole matter of arrogance. The nonreligious guy is so totally certain in his dismissal of the possibility that the passing Eskimos had anything to do with his prayer for help. True, there are plenty of religious people who seem arrogant and certain of their own interpretations, too. They're probably even more repulsive than atheists, at least to most of us. But religious dogmatists' problem is exactly the same as the story's unbeliever: blind certainty, a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up.

Interesting quotes!

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:47:26 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/22/2018 21:47

sethmadsen wrote:

Happy Thanksgiving AfterHours!

Yes, and perhaps that is where we can agree. I've already stated I'd put 25 drummers ahead of Ringo, Max Roach easily being one of them. I feel Ringo is somewhere between a symphonic drummer and a rock drummer. I somehow don't think any symphonic drummers would immediately come to many minds. Anyway, I think the discussion lies somewhere between Ringo is a dime a dozen pop drummers (where I think I hear you coming from) and easily being in the top 5 pop drummers of all time (my perspective). Are there prog rock, jazz drummers who are waaay better at what they do well, absolutely. Do some of those prog drummers have no idea how to write a melody with the drums... also very true. Jazz drummers on the other hand... well they always will win, even over Mr. Bonham.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

Fair enough, we can leave it that for the time being.

Agreed that probably any of the best Jazz drummers are superior to Bonham (Bonham would probably make my top 10 or so Rock drummers). Similar to Scaruffi, I rank Jaki Liebezeit (Can) #1. My top 10, 20 and so forth would feature a shuffling of many of his top choices -- not the same order though. My #2 might be Damon Che Fitzgerald (Don Caballero), for instance... ... though I've never really sat down and tried to determine my exact drum rankings in an ordered, precise sequence.

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

RoundTheBend — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 14:09:13 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 11/22/2018 19:09

Happy Thanksgiving AfterHours!

Yes, and perhaps that is where we can agree. I've already stated I'd put 25 drummers ahead of Ringo, Max Roach easily being one of them. I feel Ringo is somewhere between a symphonic drummer and a rock drummer. I somehow don't think any symphonic drummers would immediately come to many minds. Anyway, I think the discussion lies somewhere between Ringo is a dime a dozen pop drummers (where I think I hear you coming from) and easily being in the top 5 pop drummers of all time (my perspective). Are there prog rock, jazz drummers who are waaay better at what they do well, absolutely. Do some of those prog drummers have no idea how to write a melody with the drums... also very true. Jazz drummers on the other hand... well they always will win, even over Mr. Bonham.

Re: Best Hard Rock & Metal Albums

AfterHours — Thu, 22 Nov 2018 03:27:52 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 11/22/2018 08:27

[quote="sethmadsen"]

AfterHours wrote:

@ seth

While I am completely certain of my position in regards to the actual discussion at hand (re: Ringo, historically extraordinary?), I do want to apologize for any comments that were overly hostile or rude, particularly over the last batch of replies.

It is better if I have a bit more time to give some more detailed response, copy and paste videos or whatever is necessary, etc. So as soon as I can, I will go into my answers a bit more to better clarify.

And I will post a write up on VU and Nico, or at least essential observations/insights/bullet points as to why it is such an astonishing and profound masterpiece the likes of which has rarely been approached. Something that could perk some ears on a revisit and other users might even find useful. From what I remember, we also agreed on a Doors one (from our "criteria/Sistine Chapel" convo months ago), which I still have in mind to do sometime after VU, but not sure exactly when. I should be able to squeeze in the VU and Nico one within the next few days. If something comes up, no later than Sun night.

sethmadsen wrote:

I too likely was over the top and apologize (I nearly sent this as a PM). I mean come on, I was defending Ringo... 🤣 (I still stand by the arguments I was making as well and have yet to really be convinced otherwise as well). Ringo was not the most amazing drummer of all time in the "traditional" sense, but to ignore his craft as a significant place in drumming history (and not just because he was "famous", but on the merits of his actual work) I think also is ignoring and giving him a disservice. John Bonham really can't match Ringo's melodies, even if Ringo can't match Bonham's incredible delivery and technical prowess. Define best drummer. I do think, however, it is easy to characterize him as a weak drummer. It's a bit like fine foods and wine though... is it obvious or is it subtle? For Ringo it's much more subtle (imo). I think this recaps our conversation in an ok fashion (your argument to the fact that he probably is recognized just because he is a Beatle, except the author recognized that as a positive thing and you a negative/mediocrity thing). https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/sep/19/ringo-starr-great-drummer-the-beatles-genius

Thank you and appreciated.

I think where we differ is in thinking Ringo's melodic style was extraordinary when I find others did it better, almost any of which were much more dynamic to boot. Roach, for instance, carves a HUGE gap between them. Im not sure how Ringo could be among the greatest if there are drummers that there is simply no comparison with. It's a logical fallacy in my book, that doesn't hold up to comparison/scrutiny, and would warrant a revised search if I found myself with the same conclusion. Its hard to find a good or better Jazz drummer that hadn't surpassed him quite easily. And it isnt difficult to find pop or melodic rock drummers that weren't minimally his equal, a number of which obviously surpassed him across various albums/examples.

It's one of those points that is so obviously myth that it quickly gets annoying to find oneself actually having to argue about it (from my position). It is hard to not start to think the other person (you, anyone) must be just holding dearly onto said myth because its the Beatles "so Ringo automatically qualifies" and so on... Totally fine if you're not doing that, but its an impossible to believe position (his elevated greatness) because its just not based on anything real that I can see (not the idea that he was "good at what he did" -- which I would agree -- but the idea that he was "historically extraordinary/one of the best ever"). Quite illogical to me -- the evidence (other drummers) that Ive listened to (whether before, during or after The Beatles) is just overwhelming.

sethmadsen wrote:

I feel this got heated because I felt like you intimated that Beatles fans are idiots and that I haven't got a clue about evaluating art. You know, like I don't have a degree from a top 50 university in German Literature and Philosophy or anything like that. I haven't dedicated much of my life to critical thinking or anything, so a bit of a slap in the face. Thank you for apologizing. It is accepted and I hope you accept mine.

Yes, that was going too far. Fwiw I originally meant it within the spectrum of "evaluating The Beatles and Ringo's drumming" so I didn't mean it as a general point in other evaluations. But still it was quite a jump in conclusion and not something I actually know to be true or not. Exaggerated, generalized and said out of frustration.

Will get to the rest as soon as I can...