Best Ever Albums

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sun, 13 Jun 2021 17:36:30 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 06/13/2021 21:36

musicoed wrote:

2021 �... Best Of (So Far)

I want to congratulate all the BEA participants on the team victory in the second round.
In addition, BEA is now eligible for additional entries in all three categories.
The team super bid goes to the BEA albums, it was the biggest contribution to the victory.
Unless objected to by BEA members.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sun, 30 May 2021 18:45:27 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 05/30/2021 22:45

Hello everyone!
BEA is credited as a participant in the tournament: 2021 �... Best Of (So Far).
In three nominations: 1) Music Videos, 2) Tracks, 3) Albums; + team score: 4) Teams.
BEA track ratings equate to missing video and singles ratings.
The rates for the ratings are the first tracks released as a single or an official video.
The BEA track rating is determined by the queue: 1) the percentile, 2) the number of votes.
Everyone is invited to summarize the musical results of the first half of 2021.
You can take part by voting for releases on the BEA platform.
You can also participate with your own ratings on the RYM platform.
Who has the opportunity to represent the interests of BEA at the tournament in RYM, please respond in this thread.
Good luck to all!

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sun, 17 Jan 2021 10:42:25 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/17/2021 15:42

Rhyner wrote:

... (This is one of the reasons I like BEA. 'Haters' can't tank an album's rank like they can on RYM.)

But they can boost other albums. Correct if I'm wrong.
On BEA, an album can get more votes if it is on the lists (year, 10 years, all times).
Plus there is some kind of dependence on the rank of the music lover. I saw a maximum rating of 16.
The haters on RYM never dreamed of such breaks.
The album is automatically lowered in the general list of the site due to the promotion of the more successful ones.
After all, the places are not limited only from the bottom. This is no more peaceful than a protest vote.

Protest voting on RYM (exclude hackers).
Once again I want to remind you that for 10 years in a row the band's albums have been included in the top 100 RYM.
The 2020 album hasn't been competitive since February.
I didn't follow this, but at the end of October the position on RYM was already # 994.
If this annoyed anyone, it was the fans.
They had to maximize their grades. But the album continued to decline.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sun, 17 Jan 2021 10:37:46 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/17/2021 15:37

19loveless91 wrote:

... The Slow Rush as an example - it is much much lower placed, if you look at the rankings according to average rating. For example, there are only 399 2020 albums with more than 10 ratings in BEA database. The Slow Rush is placed #170 of those. It's true that it is much lower on RYM, but that database is much bigger than BEA (more users, more added albums), and considering the album's 3.07 rating, I assume it's also roughly in the first half of albums according to their rating average, like on BEA.

Sorry, I could not find where to verify your numbers on the average rating.
The database and the number of RYM users were larger in previous years, but this did not interfere.
Here is a summary table by year for the three communities, maybe mathematicians will have their say.

TI -------2010----2012---2015---2020
----------------------------------------------
BEA ------10-------2--------3--------7
AOTY ----53-------8-------13------188
RYM -----79-------9-------43-----1060

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

KitchenSink — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 18:10:45 GMT

Author: KitchenSink

Posted: 01/16/2021 23:10

objectivity is a myth perpetuated by randian oligarchs in order to sell more vape pens

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

Rhyner — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:14:41 GMT

Author: Rhyner

Posted: 01/16/2021 22:14

musicoed wrote:

19loveless91 wrote:

… - those sites just calculate rankings differently.

It might work if we were talking about a gap of tens or even hundreds, but not 1000.

I think it can. The crucial difference is that on RYM, negative ratings affect the ranking. Let's say there's a divisive album that half of the population loves and the other half hates. On RYM, assuming both groups are represented equally, the score will average out to be somewhere in the middle, and that album's rank will reflect that by not being very impressive.

With BEA on the other hand, the only thing that matters is how many charts it's on and in what position. The only people putting it in charts are going to be the "love it" half of the population. So the "hate it" half have zero impact on its rank.

And of course this depends on exposure as well. If an album is super obscure and hardly anyone has even heard it, it doesn't make much of a difference what percentage of the population like it vs. dislike it, because even if everyone who hears it loves it, it won't appear on very many charts and thus can't achieve a very high rank.

But an artist like Tame Impala with a large established fan base can release a mediocre album and still have it rank relatively highly on BEA, because even if a sizable chunk of the population considers it to be a lesser album, there will still be quite a few folks who like it and put it on their charts. A small percent of a very large number is still pretty big. (This is one of the reasons I like BEA. 'Haters' can't tank an album's rank like they can on RYM.)

Plus what 19loveless91 said.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

19loveless91 — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:43:57 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 01/16/2021 21:43

musicoed wrote:

It might work if we were talking about a gap of tens or even hundreds, but not 1000.

Well, if we take The Slow Rush as an example - it is much much lower placed, if you look at the rankings according to average rating. For example, there are only 399 2020 albums with more than 10 ratings in BEA database. The Slow Rush is placed #170 of those. It's true that it is much lower on RYM, but that database is much bigger than BEA (more users, more added albums), and considering the album's 3.07 rating, I assume it's also roughly in the first half of albums according to their rating average, like on BEA.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 09:09:15 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/16/2021 14:09

RoundTheBend wrote:

… I suppose in the end what matters most is if you like it ...

I don't want to blame anyone or dig into the real reasons. I am not a supporter of extremes at all. One and the same music cannot be liked by everyone and equally. Most people will never like experimentation. But even for educational purposes, you should not use forgery.
I just see a trend. It is becoming more and more difficult to find interesting music for yourself. There are more and more obstacles on the way to this. For some reason, it seems to me that these things are interconnected.

RoundTheBend wrote:

Data is fun, but it's kinda a weird juxtaposition of art and science. It overlaps kinda, but not really. So take it all with a grain of salt as they say…

In my opinion, if something will save the world, it will be information.))

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:05:50 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/16/2021 12:05

19loveless91 wrote:

… - those sites just calculate rankings differently.

It might work if we were talking about a gap of tens or even hundreds, but not 1000.

19loveless91 wrote:

… Also, I think if fans of the artist's previous work will find the new album to be worse, it may result in a disproportionally lower rating average ...

Maybe this is a reason to vote against the album, but not against the band. And this applies equally to all music lovers, all communities.

19loveless91 wrote:

… (vs. if the same album was released by an unknown artist with only a few listeners).

Here I cannot agree. With a small number of fans, any abnormal voice can change the result. To drive the release of stars into the basement, thousands must abnormally vote.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 06:17:07 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/16/2021 11:17

Streams wrote:

There's nothing impartial about it. … which is elevated by accessibility in listening when monetary backing can center recordings on widespread corporate platforms like spotify, apple, youtube, etc.

I like the way you think. But these communities are in the same information space. The "listening accessibility" is the same, but the ratings are opposite.

Streams wrote:

None of this indicates the quality of the music, just a process that canonizes products via heightened visibility.

Unfortunately, "heightened visibility" tells me too much about the quality of the music.))

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

RoundTheBend — Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:44:51 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 01/16/2021 07:44

Now I know when Skinny is drunk.

I find algorithm changes annoying too. Like, well if a user isn't constantly online, we don't value their ratings/rankings as much anymore. I think that's dumb.

But yeah those numbers are indeed drastically different, eh? So that is interesting.

I suppose in the end what matters most is if you like it. I'm not a fan of these sites because I like their rankings, rather something to manage my music addictions and to chat with the fine folks here.

Data is fun, but it's kinda a weird juxtaposition of art and science. It overlaps kinda, but not really. So take it all with a grain of salt as they say. Tomorrow they will change the algorithm and ALL top 10k albums will be OK Computer. 🤣

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

Applerill — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:28:19 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 01/16/2021 03:28

Darn, I haven’t thought about Poe in a really long time. I’ll admit I prefer

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Naon Margina by Itoh Masyitoh & Group Rineka Swara

More than most Jay Z, though :/

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

Skinny — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:50:07 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 01/15/2021 20:50

19loveless91 wrote:

Well, to actually answer OP's question - those sites just calculate rankings differently. BEA (presumably indieheads as well) are mostly popularity based. Meaning, the more charts an albums appears on BEA, the higher the rank. So logically it follows that the most hyped bands and albums (eg. Tame Impala) will be higher on BEA - more people listening to it = more charts (even if on average the users don't like the album all that much).

RYM ranks albums according to average rating (sort of, they have their own algorithm that also accounts for number of ratings, ie. popularity). An album by a popular artist will have many ratings, but the number of listeners doesn't matter so much. So if it doesn't get a good critical reception (The Slow Rush had a decent reception, but not as good as Lonerism or Currents), it will have a negative impact on the ratings. Also, I think if fans of the artist's previous work will find the new album to be worse, it may result in a disproportionally lower rating average (vs. if the same album was released by an unknown artist with only a few listeners).

There are also of course some minor differences among the communities, but I can't really begin to guess what they would be.

Jay-Z still slaps, mind.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

19loveless91 — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:36:14 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 01/15/2021 20:36

Well, to actually answer OP's question - those sites just calculate rankings differently. BEA (presumably indieheads as well) are mostly popularity based. Meaning, the more charts an albums appears on BEA, the higher the rank. So logically it follows that the most hyped bands and albums (eg. Tame Impala) will be higher on BEA - more people listening to it = more charts (even if on average the users don't like the album all that much).

RYM ranks albums according to average rating (sort of, they have their own algorithm that also accounts for number of ratings, ie. popularity). An album by a popular artist will have many ratings, but the number of listeners doesn't matter so much. So if it doesn't get a good critical reception (The Slow Rush had a decent reception, but not as good as Lonerism or Currents), it will have a negative impact on the ratings. Also, I think if fans of the artist's previous work will find the new album to be worse, it may result in a disproportionally lower rating average (vs. if the same album was released by an unknown artist with only a few listeners).

There are also of course some minor differences among the communities, but I can't really begin to guess what they would be.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

Skinny — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:57:21 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 01/15/2021 16:57

Streams wrote:

There's nothing impartial about it. For any for-profit publication, marketing, promotion, and reviews are more often bought than not. The content of reviews and their ratings are edited to fit the brand of the publication. User-based sites are biased by the ubiquity of the music involved in this process, which is elevated by accessibility in listening when monetary backing can center recordings on widespread corporate platforms like spotify, apple, youtube, etc. None of this indicates the quality of the music, just a process that canonizes products via heightened visibility.

Jay-Z still slaps, mind.

Re: Objectivity of rating in communities

Streams — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 11:04:52 GMT

Author: Streams

Posted: 01/15/2021 16:04

There's nothing impartial about it. For any for-profit publication, marketing, promotion, and reviews are more often bought than not. The content of reviews and their ratings are edited to fit the brand of the publication. User-based sites are biased by the ubiquity of the music involved in this process, which is elevated by accessibility in listening when monetary backing can center recordings on widespread corporate platforms like spotify, apple, youtube, etc. None of this indicates the quality of the music, just a process that canonizes products via heightened visibility.

Objectivity of rating in communities

musicoed — Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:25:20 GMT

Author: musicoed

Posted: 01/15/2021 15:25

I am interested in the question of the objectivity of the rating. There are always doubts about the impartiality of music publications. One music lover's score may depend on various circumstances. On the other hand, in large communities, any fluctuations are usually smoothed out.

Here's how communities voted last year for The Slow Rush by Tame Impala:

This album received the highest number of support votes in the Indieheads community - 10.2 k (95%).
In the BEA community - # 7 out of 3.000 (486 votes).
The album took # 188 in the AOTY community (Liked by 120 people).
In the RYM community, the album took - # 1060 place (8,713 ratings).

One would assume that RYM has always disliked this group. But the album Lonerism (2012) still takes an honorable place there - # 9.
What happened user preferences last year?

P.S. Community Discussion:
LetsTalkMusic (Indieheads) - this post has been removed by the moderators
AOTY
RYM