Best Ever Albums

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

19loveless91 — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:36:31 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 11/22/2012 17:36

Jasonconfused wrote:

Lets not get carried away here. I only added ONE alternate version of an album and that's the US release of Are You Experienced. Any other alternate albums that appear on my chart were already in existence. However, I'm completely in favor of merging the two Are You Experienced albums, as well as the AC/DC's High Voltage which was already in existence as two separate versions.

Sorry, should have checked that before saying anything

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

Jasonconfused — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:59 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 11/22/2012 17:34

19loveless91 wrote:

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:59:21 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/22/2012 16:59

I don't particularly want to get into the ins and outs of separate releases on this thread, because there are so many releases that could be discussed here, and this is not the right place, but the same rules apply to everybody, so this is not a vendetta against The Kinks (or band XYZ either).

Discogs consider the 1994 release as the parent, http://www.discogs.com/Kinks-To-The-Bone/master/329481 and the 1996 release a variant, and logic suggests that this is the correct treatment. This is in line with the treatment of the other albums mentioned on this thread.

RFNAPLES wrote:

What albums are included on BEA? Often artists release sets including many original albums perhaps digitally enhanced, with different liner notes and various alternate takes and bonus tracks. See for instance Miles Davis or The Beatles. BEA lists them and I think they should be listed. How about giving The Kinks a break?

The original release is always used (a very simple rule to make it easy to understand and a level playing field). In the future, the site may evolve to handle multiple releases of the same album, but this will need a considerable amount of work and proper planning. It is not a simple change, but I'm going to make a note of this, and it could be something that is added in 2013.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

RFNAPLES — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:12:37 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/22/2012 14:12

albummaster wrote:

I think the best option at the moment is to nip things in the bud and merge The Clash and then continue as things are. At some stage in the future, maybe we could have multiple versions of each release, but there are so many complications with this and the site just isn't set up for it at the moment.

Thanks for finally merging the two The Clash albums. July 1979 modified version of the album for the United States market replaced four songs from the original version with five non-album singles and b-sides, some of which were recorded and released after The Clash's second studio album. The cover art was also modified and labels changed. I prefer the US Version.

Now I have been attempting to get two albums with the same name by The Kinks listed. The situation is different than The Clash. I own both of these Kinks albums.

To The Bone was released 3 Oct, 1994 on Konk/Grapevine KNKCD 1 and Konk/Grapevine KNKLP 1 with the same 13 tracks in the UK but never released in the US.

To The Bone (2 CD Set) was released 15 Oct, 1996 on Guardian 7243 8 37303 2 2 in US with 12 tracks on disc 1 and 17 tracks on disc 2 and released 3 Mar, 1997 on Guardian 7243 8 37303 2 1 in the UK with no changes from the US version.

The Kinks consider it a separate regular release and in addition to the different labels, tracks and number of discs gave it an entirely different cover. Some of the tracks on the 2 CD set were recorded pre and post the original UK release.

What albums are included on BEA? Often artists release sets including many original albums perhaps digitally enhanced, with different liner notes and various alternate takes and bonus tracks. See for instance Miles Davis or The Beatles. BEA lists them and I think they should be listed. How about giving The Kinks a break?

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 04:26:28 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/22/2012 09:26

19loveless91 wrote:

Yeah we should definitely not have two separate entries for different versions of one album. And unfortunately, the Clash example inspired Jasonconfused to start adding US versions of various albums...

It should probably be dealt with ASAP. Unfortunately I don't have a smart solution for this problem. The best way would probably be something like they have on RYM, where each album has other editions/issues listed. But I don't think that's feasible here. Too much data to add.
Another (flawed) way would be to add an option for users to add (in the admin page for albums) bonus tracks or tracks that appear on different versions of the album. And have whoever adds those tracks to fill out a separate box to say on what version the added track appeared on. Again, it's not a great solution, because then the site would look inconsistent, with some albums having the bonus tracks added, and others not... But I don't really know what to do otherwise. I mean I don't mind having only the original tracklists listed, but obviously some people do, if they're adding separate versions to the database.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

19loveless91 — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 04:03:47 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 11/22/2012 09:03

albummaster wrote:

I definitely agree that the US Are You Experienced release was far better. However, I've never been entirely comfortable with having two versions of The Clash here, and to be honest, I'm in favour of merging it because it is setting an unwanted precedent.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 03:21:57 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/22/2012 08:21

I definitely agree that the US Are You Experienced release was far better. However, I've never been entirely comfortable with having two versions of The Clash here, and to be honest, I'm in favour of merging it because it is setting an unwanted precedent.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

Romanelli — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:04:02 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 11/21/2012 16:04

On the other hand....

There is an exception made for the first album by The Clash, with a UK & a US version listed seperately. And I have to agree...that UK version of Are You Experienced is pretty lame...right down to the album cover.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 04:04:08 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/21/2012 09:04

unfortunately, it does affect sacred cows sometimes, but there has to be consistency with this otherwise the site would quickly spiral out of control.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

Jasonconfused — Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:48:23 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 11/21/2012 00:48

I agree with the BEA protocol on original releases being the recognized one.. but Are You Experienced without Purple Haze, Hey Joe, and The Wind Cries Mary??? I rated that album with those songs in mind.. anyone else think that should be rectified?

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:19:17 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/10/2011 17:19

I think these should be judged on a case by case basis. The original album title, artwork, year of release, and track listing should be used 99% of the time (and I'm struggling to think of an example for the other 1%).

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

RFNAPLES — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:09:01 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/10/2011 14:09

In the case of the Stones and The Kinks and other groups, some albums had different titles in the USA and UK and some different tracks too. When is an album similar enough to be considered the same album?

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:59:23 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/10/2011 07:59

RFNAPLES wrote:

I agree, we would not get all the bonus tracks right; we don't always get the orginal tracks right!

Very true 🤣 , and that's the whole point. I'd rather have a site that was right most of the time, rather than a site that has no hope of *ever* being right. I think most other people would want that too.

Fergenaprido wrote:

On a similar note, what do we do about albums that were released in different versions? Exhibit A: We Are Pilots (wikipedia article) by Shiny Toy Guns was released three different times by three different record companies. Each version has a different track listing, and some songs were even re-recorded for the newer releases. The third release is probably the most well-known, and is the one that features on BEA, but it varies quite a lot from the original release.

In this example, the original release is the one that *should* be here (this applies to all others too). It sounds like the details needs to be updated/corrected.

weedygonsalez wrote:

Then there's also the cases of a lot of the earlier Stones albums, which were released in completely different forms/titles/everything in America and the UK. I'm not familiar with where this stands in the canon, but it's illustrative of the point Ferge is making.

Yes, the same applies here too. I think it's quite a sensible policy and, as long as it is applied consistently, people know where they are with it.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

weedygonsalez — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:14:10 GMT

Author: weedygonsalez

Posted: 11/09/2011 22:14

Then there's also the cases of a lot of the earlier Stones albums, which were released in completely different forms/titles/everything in America and the UK. I'm not familiar with where this stands in the canon, but it's illustrative of the point Ferge is making.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

Fergenaprido — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:02:17 GMT

Author: Fergenaprido

Posted: 11/09/2011 21:02

When I get around to updating my chart, I want to add comments to each album, so I guess I can always include my favourite bonus tracks in the comments. And I concur, perhaps adding all those bonus tracks will just complicate the album page to the point where it stops being useful or interesting and just becomes annoying.

On a similar note, what do we do about albums that were released in different versions? Exhibit A: We Are Pilots (wikipedia article) by Shiny Toy Guns was released three different times by three different record companies. Each version has a different track listing, and some songs were even re-recorded for the newer releases. The third release is probably the most well-known, and is the one that features on BEA, but it varies quite a lot from the original release.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

RFNAPLES — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:48:55 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/09/2011 19:48

I agree, we would not get all the bonus tracks right; we don't always get the orginal tracks right!

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:42:44 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/09/2011 18:42

I'm not sure I did misunderstand actually, but to be honest, I'm pretty happy with the way things are at the moment. I think it strikes the right balance between what this site is wanting to achieve, and the overhead of data maintenance.

There are other sites that try to catalogue every detail of every release (and none of them have a complete history of every band or album). We'd just be fighting a losing battle the whole time trying to catalogue every version of each release, and I'm not sure the pay-off is that big in terms of adding 'missing' information that BEA needs to fulfil it's site concept.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

RFNAPLES — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:45:45 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/09/2011 13:45

I agree with the OP. I think albummaster may have misinterpreted the reply from VADERBREWING. I believe he was suggesting that bonus tracks be listed and noted on the original album track listing and not as a separate album listing. Parenthetical notes could be made indicating same. Like the others I enjoy the bonus tracks and would like to rate them. Often the bonus track versions are the only one in print.

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

Fergenaprido — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 06:20:12 GMT

Author: Fergenaprido

Posted: 11/09/2011 11:20

Okay, thanks; it makes perfect sense. 😄 I guess I'm just unfortunate enough to often like the bonus tracks more than I like the songs on the original album. 😁

Re: Bonus/Hidden Tracks

albummaster — Wed, 9 Nov 2011 00:37:42 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/09/2011 05:37

the policy here is that we just use the track-listing from the original version of the album, excluding bonus tracks. VADERBREWING's right, it starts getting very messy indeed when you start adding variations of each release. The main purpose of the site is to surface the best albums, and it becomes impossible to do this if you are comparing two different releases of the same album. So, for consistency's sake, the original release is used.