Best Ever Albums

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Fergenaprido — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:13:36 GMT

Author: Fergenaprido

Posted: 11/25/2011 14:13

Okay then, it all sounds good to me. 😄 I think, no matter what, there will always be some potential for skewing the system, and some tweaks to be made, but by and large I believe you've thought of the most plausible things that can happen and have taken them into account.

Kudos.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

albummaster — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:06:27 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/25/2011 14:06

RFNAPLES wrote:

Suppose younger members not familiar with earlier generations only post 2000s charts. Suppose further that there are few older generation charts for various reasons. Yet suppose that these same members list Revolver high on their overall chart. Would the proposed generation chart schemes artificially lower the ranking of Revolver on the overall chart?

Let's see how this plays out. I'm going to keep an eye on the ratios to see how many charts from each decade are added. If it gets too out of kilter, the effect could always be smoothed out using weightings. We won't know this though until there are a statistically meaningful number of decade charts in the system.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

albummaster — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 08:45:53 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/25/2011 13:45

Fergenaprido wrote:

The 20% per decade, will that change over time, as more full decades are added (yes, I'm probably thinking way too long-term for this)? Also, for incomplete decades ('30s, '40s, '10s), will the weighting be the same or is it different? I didn't quite understand that point.

Every decade (at the moment) will count the same i.e. all decade charts will contribute a maximum of 20 points to the overall chart. Decade charts can only be created for 1950s onwards. 2010s is the only decade that might be contentious, so we'll just wait and see how this plays out.

Fergenaprido wrote:

As well, the system-wide BEA decade and year charts would then still be solely based on the overall ranking score, since all charts will contribute to that? I've noticed that when I view some charts (the decade ones I think), the overall score does not show up for each album. I'm guessing this method will rectify that?

I think this issue is now fixed.

Fergenaprido wrote:

For year charts, would they take effect right away, or only after the year is done? I.e. will 2011 year charts start contributing now, or would their points only come into effect January 1, 2012?

If they existed, a 2011 year chart would take effect right now. I think most people would like to create a list for the current year, and having those count would be useful to a lot of people.

Fergenaprido wrote:

Lastly, currently any chart that has not been updated in the last 10 years does not contribute to the overall points system. Will this also be the way for decade and year charts?

Hadn't thought about that until you mentioned it, not sure at the moment but there's quite a few years left to think about it 😉

Fergenaprido wrote:

As for other suggestions, I like the one someone (revolver?) made about including decade or year published charts, though I like having the option to not include them in the overall chart.

Once things settle down a bit, external decade charts could be added to the custom chart function.

Fergenaprido wrote:

For future additional charts, such as genres, artists, or countries, I don't think they should contribute to points in the overall system. It's very clear when an album is released, and can't usually be argued if its 2010 or 2011, but genres (and sometimes countries, it seems, given the Crowded House debate 😉 ) are highly subjective, and artist charts would disproportionately affect popular artists.

Yes, point noted. I think we can address this when/if these types of chart are allowed to be created.

Fergenaprido wrote:

I think my only concern would be that more recent decades and years would be disproportionately influencing the overall chart, but I really don't see any way around that, and I think that will happen regardless of the system that is used, especially at the beginning. Over time I suppose this influence would largely peter out.

I think we can all keep an eye on this to make sure the D20/Y5 ratio is working and it can be tweaked if necessary.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

RFNAPLES — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 08:43:43 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/25/2011 13:43

Suppose younger members not familiar with earlier generations only post 2000s charts. Suppose further that there are few older generation charts for various reasons. Yet suppose that these same members list Revolver high on their overall chart. Would the proposed generation chart schemes artificially lower the ranking of Revolver on the overall chart?

Re: Decade charts scoring system

RFNAPLES — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 08:28:49 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/25/2011 13:28

KISSMIF, don't include decade, year, genre, etc charts in rankings of the overall chart. Not even sure they have to be ranked at all, if so rank them only among themselves, eg all decade chart ranks, all year chart ranks, etc.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Fergenaprido — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 06:30:33 GMT

Author: Fergenaprido

Posted: 11/25/2011 11:30

albummaster wrote:

Going to start testing the new system from today and see how things look. If anyone has any feedback once this is in place, let us know on this thread...

P.S. Apologies, should have credited Fergenaprido as well (now amended my post). :oops:

No worries 😄

A few questions, though.

The 20% per decade, will that change over time, as more full decades are added (yes, I'm probably thinking way too long-term for this)? Also, for incomplete decades ('30s, '40s, '10s), will the weighting be the same or is it different? I didn't quite understand that point.

As well, the system-wide BEA decade and year charts would then still be solely based on the overall ranking score, since all charts will contribute to that? I've noticed that when I view some charts (the decade ones I think), the overall score does not show up for each album. I'm guessing this method will rectify that?

For year charts, would they take effect right away, or only after the year is done? I.e. will 2011 year charts start contributing now, or would their points only come into effect January 1, 2012?

Lastly, currently any chart that has not been updated in the last 10 years does not contribute to the overall points system. Will this also be the way for decade and year charts?

As for other suggestions, I like the one someone (revolver?) made about including decade or year published charts, though I like having the option to not include them in the overall chart.

For future additional charts, such as genres, artists, or countries, I don't think they should contribute to points in the overall system. It's very clear when an album is released, and can't usually be argued if its 2010 or 2011, but genres (and sometimes countries, it seems, given the Crowded House debate 😉 ) are highly subjective, and artist charts would disproportionately affect popular artists.

I think my only concern would be that more recent decades and years would be disproportionately influencing the overall chart, but I really don't see any way around that, and I think that will happen regardless of the system that is used, especially at the beginning. Over time I suppose this influence would largely peter out.

All in all, I think I like this suggestion, and it mostly makes sense to me so far. 😄

Re: Decade charts scoring system

albummaster — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 02:38:01 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/25/2011 07:38

Going to start testing the new system from today and see how things look. If anyone has any feedback once this is in place, let us know on this thread...

P.S. Apologies, should have credited Fergenaprido as well (now amended my post). 🫢

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Necharsian — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:53:50 GMT

Author: Necharsian

Posted: 11/25/2011 05:53

Thanks, albummaster, for giving me all this undeserved credit, but I didn't say any of those things! 🤣

Regardless, I do like the idea, and I think having the overall chart match the decade charts is an important aspect. Is this new system being tested now?

Re: Decade charts scoring system

albummaster — Thu, 24 Nov 2011 16:11:12 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 11/24/2011 21:11

Over the past few weeks, option 3 has been tested in the background with the small pilot group and I'm ruling it out now as an option because the ranks are not consistent between the overall, decade and year charts.

Fergenaprido wrote:

revolver94 wrote:

Regardless of reason, maybe you could do this: have the decades charts only have up to 10 points be added per chart (for the #1 entry). This would create decimal places, but it allows for their to be a subtle difference created by the decades charts. (For year, it could go up to 1 point, since it is only 1 year).

Upon rethinking, I kind of like this idea, because then an album that isn't great enough to appear on any user's overall chart could still appear on the BEA overall chart, albeit towards the very bottom, if enough people thought it was significant in its year (or decade). Though I think the decade or year score should only count for the first appearance, and not be cumulative.

I'm now coming around to backing revolver94's idea (above) as I think it solves the problem of keeping all the charts in a consistent sequence whilst still allowing decade charts to contribute to the totals.

Fergenaprido wrote:

Bad appears at #10 in overall chart, #2 in decade chart, and #1 in year chart
Rumours appears at xx in overall chart, #4 in decade chart, and #2 in year chart
Revolver appears at xx in overall chart, xx in decade chart, and #5 in year chart

So,
Bad would get 91 points in overall chart, 99 points in decade chart, and 100 points in year chart
Rumours would get 9.7 points in overall chart, 97 points in decade chart, and 99 points in year chart
Revolver would get 0.96 points in overall chart, 9.6 points in decade chart and 96 points in year chart

So, a chart about charts 😜
First choice: album scores only affect the chart they are in (overall, decade, or year, no cross-scoring)
Second: the decimal system of revolver
Third: option 4 of joyofdivision
Fourth: option 3 of albummaster with Necharsian's check box suggestion

The first choice above is too computationally expensive. Each time a chart is updated, it could affect the scoring of other charts by the same user, so when you add a chart, the ranks of other albums by that user need to be checked/changed as well and the scores within those charts need to be updated if the album has been superseded. This could get extremely messy if other types of chart are added down the line. The advantage of revolver94's suggestion is that the calculation only needs to happen once (which was also a reason why I originally liked option 3).

So, what I am going to test next is to make decade charts contribute in a small way to the overall list. There have been 6 full decades since 1950, so let's say each decade chart contributes 20% to the total (allowing for rounding). For year charts, if a decade is worth 20% (and there are 10 years in a decade), let's say each year is worth 5% to allow year charts to mean something (when they are released).

Therefore, in a chart of 100 entries:

a top ranked album in an 'overall' chart would still contribute 100 points to the overall, decade and year; and the bottom ranked entry would be worth 1 point.
a top ranked entry in a 'decade' chart would contribute 20 points to the overall, decade, and year; and the bottom ranked entry would be worth 0.2 points.
a top ranked entry in a 'year' chart would contribute 5 points to the overall, decade, and year; and the bottom ranked entry would be worth 0.05 points.

This will keep rankings consistent between the different types of chart without distorting (very much) the overall rankings.

Taking Fergenaprido's example above:

Bad would get 91 points if it was added in an overall chart, 19.8 points from the decade chart, and 5 points from the year chart
Rumours would get 19.4 points for appearing in the decade chart, and 4.95 points for the year chart
Revolver would get 4.8 points for appearing in the year chart

The scoring is far simpler than the other options put forward - there would only be one 'overall' total which all charts would contribute to, and not separate scores for each type of chart (this is a good thing because if new types of chart are added in the future, things would get very confusing if there was a different score for each type of chart).

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Robert Anton Wilson — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:15:19 GMT

Author: Robert Anton Wilson

Posted: 11/12/2011 20:15

LOL OK, I can do that. Works for me.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

RFNAPLES — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:54:07 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 11/12/2011 16:54

Perhaps others are having headaches reading all this stuff too. Just publish that decade (year, genre, etc.) charts and forget about ranking them in any scheme. KISSMIF.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Robert Anton Wilson — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:35:42 GMT

Author: Robert Anton Wilson

Posted: 11/12/2011 16:35

albummaster wrote:

Albums need to be ranked in the same order in each type of chart (e.g. an album shouldn't be ranked higher in a decade chart, but lower in the overall chart than another album from the same decade).

But would we be allowed to introduce new albums in between? The ultimate example for rme would be the Talking Heads for an 80's chart. I don't like any of their album enough to be on my overall chart but they represented so much the 80's that a chart without them would make no sense.

Also, and I know you will likely have to ignore that but there is the issue of the DEC 09 albums. The Wall was released Dec 1979 but it really is an 80's album not a 70's one.

I wouldn't want to have your headaches with the rating system but the one good thing about it is it may force some (like me) to think more about the order in the overall chart. I know when I order by year or decades it makes me realise about some oddities of my overall chart and forcing congruence would force me to think harder about the order I give.

The main issue for me is that the rating stomps for introducing under-rated albums. The intrdocution of genre charts which do not count towards the overall would solve that problem though and would make sure that the overall chart is truly the overall chart and that some space exists to introduce more personnal choices.

Interesting prospects you have there, Keep up the good work.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

SquishypuffDave — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:49:42 GMT

Author: SquishypuffDave

Posted: 11/12/2011 11:49

Would that affect people with a one-album-per artist policy for their general chart but want to have more than one per artist in their decade charts? The maths is too complicated for my brain. 😜

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Xavygravy — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:09:03 GMT

Author: Xavygravy

Posted: 11/12/2011 11:09

an_outlaw wrote:

Got it

Person puts up overall chart. Having an overall chart gives them the ability to put up a decade chart. Having a decade chart allows them put up a chart for each year in that decade. If either of the overall or decade charts are deleted by them, they lose the charts in the decade or years.

Now when they put up the decade charts or year charts, the website takes the appropriate albums from the overall and places them in predefined posistions using some programing wizardry. So the top 4-5 albums may be already chosen for them. Having it so they have to have an overall to get the decade and a decade to get the year, it stops people working backwards and messing up the predifined albums (like having albums from 1985 put on the overall, creates a big mess trying it the other way around)

I quite like this idea. ❗

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Fergenaprido — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:24:51 GMT

Author: Fergenaprido

Posted: 11/12/2011 01:24

joyofdivision wrote:

Fergenaprido wrote:

So, a chart about charts 😜
First choice: album scores only affect the chart they are in (overall, decade, or year, no cross-scoring)
Second: the decimal system of revolver
Third: option 4 of joyofdivision
Fourth: option 3 of albummaster with Necharsian's check box suggestion

😁 😁 😁 😁

Whatever the decision, I think that when year charts are rolled out, it would be prudent to once again enlist people to test it out ahead of time to see if what we are thinking will happen will actually happen upon implementation.

Your first choice is what I suggested as Option 4, but with the original system (overall ratings being used in overall, decade and year charts) still applying for users who either haven't got access to decade or year charts or haven't added them. If we didn't leave the overall rankings contributing to decade and year lists on these charts, then they would only list what the 'elite' members' charts contribute, which is b*ll*cks

Okay, cool. Then perhaps I understood what you meant all along and then just confused myself in the process. 😁

an_outlaw wrote:

Person puts up overall chart. Having an overall chart gives them the ability to put up a decade chart. Having a decade chart allows them put up a chart for each year in that decade. If either of the overall or decade charts are deleted by them, they lose the charts in the decade or years.

Now when they put up the decade charts or year charts, the website takes the appropriate albums from the overall and places them in predefined posistions using some programing wizardry. So the top 4-5 albums may be already chosen for them. Having it so they have to have an overall to get the decade and a decade to get the year, it stops people working backwards and messing up the predifined albums (like having albums from 1985 put on the overall, creates a big mess trying it the other way around)

I actually like the idea that putting up a chart "unlocks" the ability a subchart. Having the programming automatically transfer albums from the overall/decade chart to the decade/year chart is also a very interesting idea, and very logical, but I don't know if most users would go for it. As much as it makes sense, the subjective part of me still wants to be in control of how I order my albums in a year, even if they aren't in the same order as the overall or decade.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:11:13 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/12/2011 01:11

Got it

Person puts up overall chart. Having an overall chart gives them the ability to put up a decade chart. Having a decade chart allows them put up a chart for each year in that decade. If either of the overall or decade charts are deleted by them, they lose the charts in the decade or years.

Now when they put up the decade charts or year charts, the website takes the appropriate albums from the overall and places them in predefined posistions using some programing wizardry. So the top 4-5 albums may be already chosen for them. Having it so they have to have an overall to get the decade and a decade to get the year, it stops people working backwards and messing up the predifined albums (like having albums from 1985 put on the overall, creates a big mess trying it the other way around)

Re: Decade charts scoring system

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:34:12 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/12/2011 00:34

Fergenaprido wrote:

Re: Decade charts scoring system

GARY — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:19:29 GMT

Author: GARY

Posted: 11/12/2011 00:19

I really don't even give a damn HOW it's done anymore 🤬

LET'S JUST DO THIS!

Re: Decade charts scoring system

revolver94 — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:05:49 GMT

Author: revolver94

Posted: 11/12/2011 00:05

Necharsian wrote:

Maybe this is a dumb idea, but whatever:

What if there was a check box at the top of the overall chart that users could pick if decade charts and year charts were used in the scoring. So option 3 could be used, but the overall chart could be viewed without it at anyone's desrection.

So those who don't want the decade charts to count towards the overall score, can view the overall chart without those charts counted.

It could also yield some interesting results as far as changes amongst the overall chart. ie big rises or falls from certain albums.

Regardless of which method is chosen, I think that this should definitely be implemented.

Re: Decade charts scoring system

revolver94 — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:01:31 GMT

Author: revolver94

Posted: 11/12/2011 00:01

albummaster wrote:

revolver94 wrote:

I quite like the idea behind this but I think, over time, it could lead to bias towards 'popular' decades (probably the 2000s since this is the most recent completed decade).

Actually, I don't think this would cause that to occur. In fact, the opposite would happen, by forcing charts to be organized into albums. Imagine a user created an album with 90 albums from the 00's, 8 albums from the 90's, and 2 albums from the 80's. This obvious bias towards newer music skews the chart. On the other hand, if they were also aloud to make charts for the 60's, then it would be less skewed.
...Ah, i just realized what you're getting at. They may only make the 00's charts. Right.
Perhaps you could only have it count towards overall ratings if they make a chart for at least half of the decades? Or some other fraction?