Best Ever Albums

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

videoheadcleaner — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:54:30 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 01/12/2012 23:54

In Australia, post-punk stemmed mainly from punk pioneers The Birthday Party and The Saints:

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds
Rowland S Howard
Crime + The City Solution
Laughing Clowns
The Aints
Ed Kuepper

These are the main Aussie ones I can think of right now (not being at my home pc but at the library [still no home internet]). Bands like Models and Icehouse leaned more towards New Wave and Pop but started out in the post-punk sound.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:05:11 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/12/2012 21:05

noWaxJim wrote:

I have oft considered writing a book but never had the gumption to get off my arse and do it. I did write a thesis on radio's relationship with musical sub-genres about 15 years ago for a Masters degree, with a raging abcess caused by a shoddy wisdom tooth if memory serves. It's a piece of cake writing about something you have a passion for, probably why I've never written anything about the direct coloration between one's class status and the headwear they adopt. Apart from that last sentence, obviously.

😁

You definitely should because you have a flair for it. I am happy to help with research and the leg work (particulary if that involves listening to lots of albums) and have some contacts that might be useful as well. I am not as good with the expressing myself though... I tend to go off on tangents and get lost in my own world (as you can no doubt see from my charts!)

Did you publish your thesis? If so is it possible to get a copy?

We can take offline now as we are probably starting to bore the rest of BEA land and are veering far off topic!

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Jimmy Dread — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:04:41 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 01/12/2012 10:04

mancsoulsister wrote:

I have always thought of you as a kindred twee spirit, Jim. Yours is the only chart that makes me squeal and clap my hands in joy. I am dying to see some decade charts from you at some stage! 😄 I am also guesing that you collect records too if you have a copy of 'Spiral Scratch' ;)

Believe me, I am dying to compile them... hence my sudden surge in activity on the forums of late (of course, I could just go through and rate 100s of tripe albums but I find the English language a more powerful way of expressing opinion that using 1-5 little gold stars).

I have oft considered writing a book but never had the gumption to get off my arse and do it. I did write a thesis on radio's relationship with musical sub-genres about 15 years ago for a Masters degree, with a raging abcess caused by a shoddy wisdom tooth if memory serves. It's a piece of cake writing about something you have a passion for, probably why I've never written anything about the direct coloration between one's class status and the headwear they adopt. Apart from that last sentence, obviously.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

GARY — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:14:16 GMT

Author: GARY

Posted: 01/12/2012 00:14

mancsoulsister wrote:

noWaxJim wrote:

mancsoulsister wrote:

As an aside.. I have the original Spiral Scratch EP 8-[

You and me both 😁

Think we're obviously cut from the same cloth, MSS. I have long campaigned for the likes of Green Day, etc, to be rebranded as 'splunk'. When I say 'long campaigned', I think I may have mentioned it to a mate. Once. Whilst drinking vodka and Vimto.

Another interesting side-point... that original article has a very interesting opening line - "Post punk is a much misunderstood period". I think the person who's misunderstood it most is the one who wrote the article in the first place! The other thing the article doesn't do is mention ANY female-led acts (Crass had a couple of female members). If you ask me, post-punk was the first time women started to stamp their authority on the musical map of 'cool', whereas in the majority of cases before they were merely puppet singers or bit-part players. Again, New York was certainly of some help (Patti Smith), but the likes of The Slits, Au Pairs, Delta 5, YMG, Cosey Fanni Tutti from Throbbing Gristle and Girls At Our Best could never have happened without punk, and I think if anything this cements post-punk's most potent legacy - the asseration of women into the music scene. And if we bear in mind our mutual adoration for twee/C86/indie-pop, there is a distinct lineage between The Marine Girls, Heavenly, Lush et al and the halcyon days of the post-punk boom.

Vodka and Vimto? No wonder you like Helen Love 😁

I have always thought of you as a kindred twee spirit, Jim. Yours is the only chart that makes me squeal and clap my hands in joy. I am dying to see some decade charts from you at some stage! 😄 I am also guesing that you collect records too if you have a copy of 'Spiral Scratch' 😉

Anyway back on topic - I totally agree with you on the female front - punk/post-punk definitely signalled a shift from women being 'decorative' to women being in bands on their own terms. I can remember even in my own early 80s childhood being dismayed at the lack of 'real' women in mainstream chart music... and I think it was this need to find role models that pushed me down the musical road I travelled (and why I like so many of the bands that I do!).

You are very insightful and articulate yourself incredibly well Jim... you should write a book - How about 'Indie Women'? :D

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:41:49 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/11/2012 20:41

noWaxJim wrote:

mancsoulsister wrote:

As an aside.. I have the original Spiral Scratch EP 8-[

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

alelsupreme — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:46:02 GMT

Author: alelsupreme

Posted: 01/11/2012 16:46

noWaxJim wrote:

Norman Bates wrote:

noWaxJim has said everything I would have loved to be able to say - only better, and more.

Most kind of you. And agree with your previous comments re. synth music being post-punk. Have you ever heard TVOD/Warm Leatherette by The Normal (AKA Dan Miller, founder of Mute)? Amazing. And post-punk to the maxxx (with 3 Xs).

Those two sonbgs are amazing and it's sad that he never made a whole album in that style.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Norman Bates — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 11:02:18 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 01/11/2012 16:02

noWaxJim wrote:

Have you ever heard TVOD/Warm Leatherette by The Normal (AKA Dan Miller, founder of Mute)? Amazing. And post-punk to the maxxx (with 3 Xs).

I have. A sensational song.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Jimmy Dread — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 10:14:07 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 01/11/2012 15:14

Norman Bates wrote:

noWaxJim has said everything I would have loved to be able to say - only better, and more.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Norman Bates — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 07:53:06 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 01/11/2012 12:53

noWaxJim has said everything I would have loved to be able to say - only better, and more.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Jimmy Dread — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:41:58 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 01/11/2012 09:41

mancsoulsister wrote:

As an aside.. I have the original Spiral Scratch EP 8-[

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 04:22:10 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/11/2012 09:22

Spot on Jim

I think it is absolutely the attitude that makes the English brand of punk so unique. For that reason, the term 'punk' for me only applies to that angry style of music that came out as a reaction to the establishment and the social climate around 1976/77. Punk was driven and formed by what was happening at that time and can't be divorced from it. Bands like 'Green Day' aren't punk for me as they don't come out of that socio-political environment - derivatives of punk yes, but not punk. As Jim rightly says, punk would never have been what it was without the social/political breeding ground that started the 'rebellion'. That is my definition of punk and I don't really care if it is considered too narrow because I really can't see punk any other way.

As an aside.. I have the original Spiral Scratch EP 😨

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Jimmy Dread — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:56:40 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 01/11/2012 08:56

cartoken wrote:

I think that post punk is mainly a british thing, the US that time went more with hardcore punk. But punk and protopunk are definitely american (Ramones the fathers of punk influenced by the stooges and the VU !)

In terms of music style - yes (derivatives of garage rock). In terms of scene/attitude - no. Maclaren may have stolen from New York style, but a lot of the punk energy was borne out of the socio-economic conditions in the UK at the time (3 day week, blackouts and piles of rotting rubbish in the street caused by strikes, the SPG and SUS lawns, downtrodden working class). Did you ever hear the words 'Anarchy', 'Boredom' and (lack of) 'Career Opportunities' mentioned by the NY scene? The UK punks were powered by a combination of alienation from a Labour government that were supposed to empower them, French Situationalism and a unifying of cultures where working class whites and immigrant/2nd generation West Indian immigrants grew up on the same run-down council estates, sharing the same antipathy towards society (c.f 'White Riot'. John Lydon introducing the likes of The Gladiators through Virgin, the Clash's cover of 'Police And Thieves', even bands like The Ruts). In many ways the reggae albums of the time (Culture's Two Sevens Clash) are as punk in terms of attitude (and in some ways more so) than anything the Pistols did.

There is a major blurring of punk with post-punk. After The Pistols and The Clash (both signed to majors), every A&R man in London was desperate to sign 'the next big thing'. By extension, the majors were considered 'the establishment', so therefore why not make your own label and put a record out yourself? The Buzzcocks, arguably the most punk of punk bands (in terms of both aesthetic and music) not only put out their own record (Sprial Scratch being on their own New Hormones label) but also were the ones who organised the famous Pistols gig at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester - the one where supposedly the likes of Morrissey, Tony Wilson, JD/NO and (choke) Mick Hucknell were in attendance. It's interesting, therefore, that Howard Devoto's Magazine were one of the first post-punk outfits. Then you've got bands like the Stiff Little Fingers - signed to Rough Trade (tick), reggae influence (cover of Marley's "Johnny Was" - tick), politically charged (White Noise, Alternative Ulster - tick) - but lumped in with punk because they 'sound angry'. Post-punk is less about the music, more about the underlying content - still anti-establishment, but essentially rebelling against the rebels of the first and second wave of stale UK punks from '76-78. Punk worked because no-one could aspire to be the next Emerson, Lake and Palmer if they couldn't afford a £5000 synth or hours of musical training. As The Desperate Bicycles said - "It Was Easy, It Was Cheap - Go And Do It".

There are two books well worth reading on this subject (and very entertaining reads at that) - the aforementioned "Rip It Up And Start Again" and Jon Savage's excellent "England's Dreaming".

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:53:12 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/11/2012 08:53

noWaxJim wrote:

I find it interesting that when 'post-punk' (or should that be 'punk-funk') had a renaissance in the 00s with bands like The Rapture and Radio 4 that it was almost exclusively American. That is until Shitdisco came along and ruined everything... :roll:

I like the term 'Punk-Funk'... I think that describes the sound really well and is less ambiguous than neo post punk!

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Jimmy Dread — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 03:33:38 GMT

Author: Jimmy Dread

Posted: 01/11/2012 08:33

Norman Bates wrote:

mancsoulsister wrote:

Does your definition mean that post punk is an exclusively UK thing?

Not exclusively, but mainly probably. Bands like ESG for instance can be related to postpunk, plus punk had an enormous impact on continental Europe (Octobre Rouge, Taxi Girl, Stinky Toys in France for instance, Kleenex in Switzerland, numerous acts in Germany,...).

Agreed - ESG and Kleenex were both great acts. And definitely 'post-punk' in terms of musical style.

I think as a moniker 'post-punk' is distinctly British, however. As previously discussed, in the US bands of a similar ilk get lumbered in with the whole 'alternative rock' scene. But then what do you do with a band like Bad Brains? Punk AND Reggae? Surely the total definition of post-punk (especially when you consider that The Slits would be easily classed as a post-punk outfit), yet they tend to be lumped in with all the acts that the skater bois and gals' parents listened to.

I find it interesting that when 'post-punk' (or should that be 'punk-funk') had a renaissance in the 00s with bands like The Rapture and Radio 4 that it was almost exclusively American. That is until Shitdisco came along and ruined everything... 🙄

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Norman Bates — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 01:58:16 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 01/11/2012 06:58

mancsoulsister wrote:

Does your definition mean that post punk is an exclusively UK thing?

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

cartoken — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 20:27:11 GMT

Author: cartoken

Posted: 01/11/2012 01:27

mancsoulsister wrote:

I would agree with your definition whole-heartedly and it articulates my thoughts far better than I was doing 😄

Does your definition mean that post punk is an exclusively UK thing? I think in my mind I do think of post punk as something British.

I think that post punk is mainly a british thing, the US that time went more with hardcore punk
But punk and protopunk are definitely american (Ramones the fathers of punk influenced by the stooges and the VU !)

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

40footwolf — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:26:28 GMT

Author: 40footwolf

Posted: 01/10/2012 23:26

The only way I can fathom referring to Motorhead as a post-punk band is in the sense that Lemmy has actually always said that he has identified more with punks than metalheads, so maybe it's some kind of, like...transcendent punk attitude infiltrating metal?

What's more likely is that it's just kind of a bad article. The writing is really slipshod, bordering on incoherent occasionally.

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 18:23:25 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/10/2012 23:23

Norman Bates wrote:

It's a very good question. To me, post-punk is music that couldn't have been created if punk hadn't existed. And it must have been created right after punk broke in the UK, so anything between 78 and 84 that couldn't have been made without punk is eligible. Which makes the definition very extensive : synthpop for example, although it may seem aesthetically very remote, is definitely post-punk music.

But for bands like The Monochrome Set, who were influenced by 60s pop, or for instance The Only Ones, generally associated to postpunk because they released albums around the right time, but who were mainly influenced by The Velvet Underground, I think the definition does not apply.

But, it also means that music derived from the DIY movement in the UK, even if aesthetically quite remote from punk music (think about items in the Factory or Mute catalogues), must be tagged "postpunk", because they directly owe their existence to the punk movement. In a way, "postpunk" is "pre-indie".

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Norman Bates — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:41:19 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 01/10/2012 22:41

It's a very good question. To me, post-punk is music that couldn't have been created if punk hadn't existed. And it must have been created right after punk broke in the UK, so anything between 78 and 84 that couldn't have been made without punk is eligible. Which makes the definition very extensive : synthpop for example, although it may seem aesthetically very remote, is definitely post-punk music.

But for bands like The Monochrome Set, who were influenced by 60s pop, or for instance The Only Ones, generally associated to postpunk because they released albums around the right time, but who were mainly influenced by The Velvet Underground, I think the definition does not apply.

But, it also means that music derived from the DIY movement in the UK, even if aesthetically quite remote from punk music (think about items in the Factory or Mute catalogues), must be tagged "postpunk", because they directly owe their existence to the punk movement. In a way, "postpunk" is "pre-indie".

Re: Post Punk - Unsung Heros?

Anonymous — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:32:44 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/10/2012 21:32

Isn't it funny how an Avatar can make you go from all round 'up beat personality' and nice person....

to DRAGON LADY

🤣

Don't worry it is scaring me a bit so I will change it again when I get home tonight...

Back on topic:

I agree with you Norman about the list being pretty lame. Although the guy who wrote it is considered to be a bit of a 'punk expert' in certain circles but this list is not very insightful.

I like what I call post punk but I am not sure if my definition is really what most people think of as post punk. For example I like the Monochrome Set but don't think of them as post punk at all. I DEFINITELY would NOT put Motorhead into that category. I think of early EATB as post-punk and even early Television Personalities. I would definitely put SDC and Theatre of Hate into that bracket but struggle a bit with the Sisters as a post punk band. Wire, Magazine, Gang of Four definitely but not really Husker Du or The Dead Kennedys..

So how would you all define 'Post Punk' ? Is it a specific sound? Or a particular period in time?