Best Ever Albums

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

alelsupreme — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 19:59:34 GMT

Author: alelsupreme

Posted: 01/10/2015 00:59

I'm sure that The Zombies never did shit. They sound so wholesome I imagine they'd faint at the sight of tobacco.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 19:39:28 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/10/2015 00:39

I am positive that literally any name I post will be vetted heavily by multiple users, so I'll stay mum on the subject of who in fact could cast the first stone.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

benpaco — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 19:27:32 GMT

Author: benpaco

Posted: 01/10/2015 00:27

satiemaniac wrote:

I mean, just for the record, I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to make my position crystal clear. I really like you, benpaco, and regret coming off as personally hostile, as that truly wasn't my intention. Especially on the Internet, I'm used to people defending pedophilia in various ways, because we are told that these need to be "rational, level-headed discussions." We're taught by Reddit downvotes and Huffington Post thinkpieces that sometimes there's a necessary centrism on what is legally and ethically rape. I've taken similar stances to yours in the past, and I think the best thing we can do for victims in the context of our interpersonal dialogues is to reinforce a strong stance against such acts and to educate others why those stances are necessary. Your head is in the right place, and I don't want to make you feel belittled or talked down to. If I've hurt your feelings, I'd really appreciate a private message so we can discuss it. 😄

Yeah, no, I getcha. I'm in a weird place when it comes to statutory, largely because at my age, a lot of kids are on that border (15 year olds with 18 year olds) which I think is a little bit of it, but more than anything, I made assumptions - you didn't, I did. Not upset, don't feel looked down on or anything. Thanks for taking this all so civily, as you sort of touched on there, the internet's sort of usually really bad at that. All the best, man. PS Any recs of some weird music from some "wholesome" artists? 😉

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Mdemauri — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:34:29 GMT

Author: Mdemauri

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:34

uninformdopinion wrote:

i think the less i know about an artist, the more interesting their music is

The less immoral, unethical and unjust things I know, the better. I was totally shocked about the Bowie and Page stuff I am just hearing about for the first time. The Jerry Lee Lewis and Elvis things were scandals but more acceptable (slightly) back in their day.

Hearing the child porn charges against Pete Townshend really bummed me out at the time. More so than others like Gary Glitter because Townshend was my favorite guitarist growing up. I'm glad that was not true.

On the political front, I can separate the artist from his views because I can make up my mind and not be swayed by them. I didn't chose to vote for/against John Kerry because of Bruce Springsteen! I attended the Vote for Change concert back in 2004 because it was a chance to see Bruce and REM together. I ran into my boss there as we both denied our political affiliations and said we were just there for the music, which was true! I had a problem with my money being used for something that I may or may not have believed in. But I can't control what they used my money for. I got a great night of music.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:15:48 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:15

i think the less i know about an artist, the more interesting their music is

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:13:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:13

meccalecca wrote:

This is something we simply cannot know. Though he may not have done anything publicly, we really cannot know how he has personal dealt with this.

This is very true. I suppose from my perspective when you do something so publicly and you are a figure whose influence will win over people in such a way that they will defend a crime they wouldn't defend were it an average Joe, there's a part of me that feels like you should be compelled to make some public gesture. Not because society deserves an apology, but because the people in society who are going to defend you need to get it from the horse's mouth that that isn't cool. I dunno, this was a heated discussion within the alt lit community, to which I'm tangentially (and woefully lol) affiliated due to some friends I've made over the years, when Tao Lin and Stephen Tully Dierks were outed as rapists, and a lot of discussions circled on how to properly atone for these crimes, what the correct route to take is when people at large know about the rape, checking yourself and not thinking you deserve applause for being bigger than 99% of publicly accused criminals by admitting your mistake, but also as a group (in that case small) figuring out how to forgive. Prioritizing the victim's needs was always the primary concern, though, so if Ms. Maddox preferred a private apology or I don't even know what, and he did that, then yeah. I'm not the arbiter of ethics, just someone who thinks that it's an important discussion to have regardless of the real life conclusion reached in the specific instance.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:13:23 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:13

meccalecca wrote:

Interesting sidenote. My childhood pediatrician was arrested for child pornography a year or two ago. Made me feel incredibly violated even though nothing ever specifically happened to me (as far as I know)

😲

That would really mess with my head.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:09:07 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:09

satiemaniac wrote:

I truly wish he had been compelled to acknowledge these events and their wrongness so he could begin the process of healing those psychological wounds, but more importantly so that the victim of his sexual predation could begin undoing the trauma that she's so deeply internalized.

This is something we simply cannot know. Though he may not have done anything publicly, we really cannot know how he has personal dealt with this.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Graeme2 — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:05:26 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:05

I wouldn't get too worked up about still enjoying your cherished zep and Bowie collections as if you looked into it enough I'm sure you'd find a high number of the big acts at this time and before getting upto similar things. Not that I condone it but it must have happened on a regular basis. They couldn't give a shit. Remember bill wyman? Was reminded of his sorded episode when I recently read a stones biog. He hooked up with Mandy smith when she was 13. He was only in his late 40s. Married her when she was 18. All along she was egged on by her family. Wasn't prescilla Presley 13 when elvis started to see her?

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 15:02:06 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 20:02

satiemaniac wrote:

The only "equal rights" pedophiles need is increased access to mental health facilities. I don't think the cultural climate needs to change to accommodate people who molest and rape children. It should change to favor rehabilitation of criminals more broadly and to be more sympathetic to the mental and cultural factors that produce criminals, without apologizing for or excusing the crimes themselves. At the same time, non-acting pedophiles should be treated with sympathy, and I truly think their condition is sad, and I favor like artificial child pornography, but I also don't think we should excuse their exploitation of children for IRL child pornography, and we shouldn't be centering them in a discussion that includes children who have been sexually exploited. It's the same sort of thing as when we center like the mental trauma of soldiers over the lives they've taken. Both need to be evaluated, but like, check yourself.

I agree 100% with everything you just said.

Interesting sidenote. My childhood pediatrician was arrested for child pornography a year or two ago. Made me feel incredibly violated even though nothing ever specifically happened to me (as far as I know)

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:59:47 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:59

meccalecca wrote:

I agree with this for the most part, but similarly, there are actually many 14 year olds who are more emotionally mature than 24 year olds. Not an excuse, but this is why these issues fall into gray areas. There are so many damaged adults who simply don't have the capacity to reason that this action is not ethical.

I understand how it can be difficult to evaluate in the moment. Again, my stance here is not to say David Bowie is subhuman scum. It is to be clear in damning this specific action and not coming up with excuses for it happening while holding in tension his own humanity and condition. I truly wish he had been compelled to acknowledge these events and their wrongness so he could begin the process of healing those psychological wounds, but more importantly so that the victim of his sexual predation could begin undoing the trauma that she's so deeply internalized.

When I use the word crime, I mean it in the way I know you would favor it to mean - a deeply unethical violation that should be corrected through some form of reparation, personal growth, attentiveness to the needs of the victim, not the incredibly ineffective and immoral penal system we have erected currently.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:57:32 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:57

satiemaniac wrote:

No amount of contraception education can make a 14-year-old capable of fully understanding the incredibly deep emotional impact of sexual relations, and taking advantage of someone that old as a 24 year old is a crime.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:55:40 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:55

meccalecca wrote:

No. we will not see an equal rights movement for pedos. But I think we'll find new ways of treating the disease. And I think that's the thing. People don't commit these crimes because they're inherently evil. They commit these crimes because there's something completely off in their brain, likely due to problems that occurred in their own childhoods.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:50:55 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:50

sp4cetiger wrote:

I don't agree with what he did, but all crimes are different and context does matter (both in the legal and ethical sense).

Agreed. It can be extremely difficult to feel empathy for people who commit crimes like this, so we often distance ourselves and treat them as subhuman scum, but in reality, they're usually not all that different than ourselves with some terrible problems of their own leading to these events. It's not an excuse, but it's why criminal justice is such a failed system.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:49:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:49

sp4cetiger wrote:

Can't say I agree with this. Painting a simple black-and-white picture of morality and putting Bowie's act on the same level as, say, Jerry Sandusky's, isn't doing society any favors, IMO. I don't agree with what he did, but all crimes are different and context does matter (both in the legal and ethical sense). Treating others like children that need to be "educated" to think in binary is... well, let's just say there's a reason I'm not Catholic.

I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. Context for individual cases will always matter, and severity of the crime obviously fluctuates with several factors. My problem is with the baseline being up for debate. I'm sorry, but there's no good reason to live in this make-believe blurred lines world where we arbitrarily label a certain phase as "ephebopilia" as some kind of apologism for a crime. It's the same to me as Republican lawmakers talking about what constitutes "real rape." No amount of contraception education can make a 14-year-old capable of fully understanding the incredibly deep emotional impact of sexual relations, and taking advantage of someone that old as a 24 year old is a crime. Is it the same as being a serial rapist? No. Is it the same as violating young boys you have direct power over, as opposed to someone whose relationship with your power is due to some amount of agency on their part? No. Is it necessary to pussyfoot around about whether it's rape, though? No. Society, as you put it, is done no favors by us wiggling around uncomfortably when these allegations are brought out instead of responding with due diligence. It creates a climate where victims of such crimes are afraid to come out. I understand that Lori Maddox does not consider herself a victim, and I think a lot of that has to do with trauma incurred during formative adolescent years wherein she was involved with at least two sexual predators.

@WindowAbove, you're 16. That's the age of consent in many states in the United States, and I have not done personal research into why, but I assume it's based on some kind of psychological testimony that that's acceptable within certain parameters. I will probably do some personal research before I continue discussing this particular element, but like 14 is two years below that threshold, most likely for good reason. I have never interacted with a 14 year old who was genuinely prepared for a sexual relationship with another human being, particularly one who was 10 years older and in a position of immense power.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:38:30 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:38

WindowAbove wrote:

And like how you mentioned that people are defending pedophiles in some areas, I think that there will be equal rights movements for adults sexually attracted to children in let's say like 20 years from now.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:36:54 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:36

satiemaniac wrote:

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

WindowAbove — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:34:58 GMT

Author: WindowAbove

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:34

To satie, yes I'd agree with you for back then in general (though I nor you know what Maddox's knowledge of sex was at the time) as the education about sex was poor compared to today, but now a lot of people my age have a better knowledge about that stuff and like contraception etc. if Maddox was enjoying her relations with Bowie and Page, and she wasn't harmed or raped or anything, then I don't feel like that's as big of an issue than if they forced her into sex. I think at least Page is a shithead regardless (and from what I've heard Page did a lot more fucked up things than Bowie). And like how you mentioned that people are defending pedophiles in some areas, I think that there will be equal rights movements for adults sexually attracted to children in let's say like 20 years from now.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

meccalecca — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:28:26 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:28

satiemaniac wrote:

same as Woody Allen, though obviously the latter's pedophilia is more apparent in certain films themselves (the aforementioned Manhattan is a film I can't watch in good conscience given that the entire thing is animated by the same fantasies that would lead him to violate Dylan Farrow).

This is when it's truly impossible to separate the art from the artist. When their work mirrors their personality flaws, it's impossible to overlook. In the same regard, if their work contradicts their personal problems/crimes, it has a similar effect (Cosby).

It's tough to see our heroes so tragically flawed and human. When it comes to sleazy men and pedophilia, it's an inescapable problem. In many cultures around the world, this is still acceptable every day behavior because of the extremely oppressive traditions. It's deeply saddening to know that women are still subjected to this with regularity.

Re: Separating the Art From the Artist.

Anonymous — Fri, 9 Jan 2015 14:20:16 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 01/09/2015 19:20

I mean, just for the record, I wasn't making any assumptions, just trying to make my position crystal clear. I really like you, benpaco, and regret coming off as personally hostile, as that truly wasn't my intention. Especially on the Internet, I'm used to people defending pedophilia in various ways, because we are told that these need to be "rational, level-headed discussions." We're taught by Reddit downvotes and Huffington Post thinkpieces that sometimes there's a necessary centrism on what is legally and ethically rape. I've taken similar stances to yours in the past, and I think the best thing we can do for victims in the context of our interpersonal dialogues is to reinforce a strong stance against such acts and to educate others why those stances are necessary. Your head is in the right place, and I don't want to make you feel belittled or talked down to. If I've hurt your feelings, I'd really appreciate a private message so we can discuss it. 😄

And yeah, mecca, I suppose saying it's one of the most disgusting things I've heard was over the top, but at the same time, it is one of the more sickening revelations just based on the fact that David Bowie's music has accompanied me through road trips, heartbreak, finals weeks, walks in the park, nights where I had trouble sleeping, parties, dates, etc. Realizing that he was (is, since it seems he hasn't done anything to publicly acknowledge or rectify the situation) just another smarmy, sleazy rock dude hit deep. It definitely changes the landscape of his music for me, same as Woody Allen, though obviously the latter's pedophilia is more apparent in certain films themselves (the aforementioned Manhattan is a film I can't watch in good conscience given that the entire thing is animated by the same fantasies that would lead him to violate Dylan Farrow).