Best Ever Albums

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

RoundTheBend — Mon, 5 Sep 2016 18:28:46 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 09/05/2016 22:28

What is your viewpoint on illegally downloading music?
I'm thankful for services like Spotify which basically make this legal again. I've always purchased music worthy of purchase, but this allows me to find music that I wouldn't normally purchase.

Having said that, I miss living in LA and buying physical records... having said that, the hundreds of albums I've bought, almost none of it went to the artist because I'd almost always buy it used... before and after the interwebs "ruined" the music industry.

Why has illegal downloading become so common and so accepted a thing?
Obvious answer is the internet. The internet is rightfully so a place where all forms of information can be freely transferred, including music. It took the idea of a mixed tape or borrowing a CD from a friend and magnified it. Most people I talk to say they think it is bad ethically, yet still do it... I suppose that means the other reason is that we are all terrible, terrible people. Then again, we came from people that would kill each other for dumb reasons like honor and pride. I'd say we've made huge advancements in that regard, haha.

Where is the line between listening to music for free legally and illegally, or is there such a line? What is your viewpoint on using music listening/downloading services that give the artist virtually no compensation for their music (e.g. the controversy that surrounds Spotify)?

I think there is a huge difference between "legally" streaming. Those services have gotten permission to do so. If the artist didn't want that... well then I just go find the album on YouTube (which is also ethically terrible).

Having said that, I think Jeffrey Lewis posted on Facebook that he got $12 for 100k hits. I mean, at the same time if that was radio listening (I don't know that much about radio) I imagine that he'd get paid nothing for those "streams". It goes back to my original post... I think people got around listening to music without paying for it in the past and it wasn't illegal or unethical - or at least we never looked at listening to the radio, borrowing a cd from a friend, or making a mixed tape as illegal or unethical.

So on one hand I feel bad, but on the other I feel like something like NetFlix provides the same service for cheaper and nobody gets on to them about it. I guess that's different because the actors are paid differently? Maybe some are paid based on performance of the work and some are just paid a flat rate? idk.

I'll say it one more time: the artists that I would go see live and the artists that I buy the records new from wouldn't change if I didn't have spotify or downloads available to me. Not having Spotify wouldn't change my behavior to then spend gobs of money on a shitty Oasis album... but I'll still spin it once a decade either from Spotify or a friends record collection to make sure they still suck.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

RoundTheBend — Mon, 5 Sep 2016 18:11:25 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 09/05/2016 22:11

A few useless rambles:

Remember when hundreds of thousands of mix tapes were being shared all the time and nobody gave a shit about the ethics of it?
Also remember when people owned like 50 albums max because they couldn't afford more?
Remember borrowing an album from someone, listening to it a few times, REALLY liking it, yet you still didn't buy it?
Remember those people you grew up with who all they listened to was the radio and maybe had like 5 albums?

But then remember that time when you downloaded an entire discography of an artist for free? What's funny is you probably would have NEVER, EVER purchased all of those Dylan albums, but now you are familiar with all those obscure Dylan albums?

I personally think these things:
1) pirating has done more to help the sales of music than to hurt it
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21856720
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/29/report-album-piracy-may-help-musicians-sell

2) Music sales started to drop in the early 2000s because there was a lot of shit music and we have had good music since then, but there is no such thing as a "big band" anymore that everyone loves. The internet has created this double edged sword of one side being a limitless supply of music and on the other side no big artist that satiates the bitter sweet aesthetic of a "real artist" (meaning someone with substance worth remembering) who can also attract a massive following (has enough impact that history will even remember).

3) Also I remember Dave Grohl saying something like if you want to support an artist, go see them live. They get way more money from that than buying their album.

4) Let's not forget that record companies do serve a great purpose and that's who gets a decent chunk of the monies. Yes we hate them for good reasons, but let's not forget that for many artists we love, we wouldn't know anything about them if it weren't for their label. The label also sorts out the wheat from the chaff for us, creating a palatable aesthetic in their own right. Some labels have a fantastic legacy because of this. Having every artist imaginable on Spotify (as much as I love Spotify for some reasons like finding new music, listening to stuff I'd never ever ever ever buy, not having to catalog/organize my music, etc) is very overwhelming when trying to find something to enjoy... it takes a lot of work.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Sometype — Sun, 4 Sep 2016 16:19:04 GMT

Author: Sometype

Posted: 09/04/2016 20:19

I only really illegally download music if there is no other way for me to listen to a new album immediately and even then i will either delete it off my laptop if i dislike it or i will invest in having a physical copy if i like it (or wait for it to become available on spotify).

To be honest, with so many exclusives being released recently (Frank Ocean, Travi$ Scott, Beyonce etc.), it feels like illegally download said projects almost becomes justified among everyone. Which i suppose you can't blame people for; exclusives dont benefit fans at all, only the ones lucky enough to already have an account with whatever platform the artist has decided to go for. Exclusives are only done to benefit the artist and risks alienating fans into either not bothering with their once favourite artists or, back to the original sort of point, justifying fans decisions to illegally download the projects/albums that are being essentially kept from them.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

souplipton — Sun, 4 Sep 2016 13:22:04 GMT

Author: souplipton

Posted: 09/04/2016 17:22

This post has caused me to adjust my listening habits somewhat. Almost every first album listen is now on spotify, and most second listens. After that, I decide that it's not worth a relisten or it is, in which case I download it to give a couple more listens to decide if it's worth buying. Essential just shifted first couple listens to a streaming service where artist will get paid, and if I like it enough to consider it, I download to determine whether it's worth a buy.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Decurso — Sat, 3 Sep 2016 10:12:45 GMT

Author: Decurso

Posted: 09/03/2016 14:12

When I lived in Canada I tried to pay for digital downloads whenever possible. I had some rules, though. 1.If the artist is charging upwards of a hundred bucks for concert tickets, then I consider that to be a "download tax". Honestly, I don't think The Rolling Stones care much if you download their discography. 2.If the artist is dead, it's fair game. 3. If I used to have it in another format, I should not have to pay for it twice.

I don't have a bank account in Brazil, so yeah, I download everything. But I also go to four or five live shows a month, and a lot of those shows are by artists I download. I probably would not pay to see a lot of bands without the chance to sample their music, so in a lot of cases my downloading their music results in income in the form of ticket sales.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

cestuneblague — Sat, 3 Sep 2016 09:25:32 GMT

Author: cestuneblague

Posted: 09/03/2016 13:25

Yeah that is a major point to be made. I have no problem if you prefer to buy all your music, be it through whatever format, but when you shame other people for not doing that it just turns the argument into class warfare. Yes, I do mostly stream at this point, which is not technically stealing since Im doing it through a service that has a license to distibute the music and pays the artists for each listen (given some video streaming raises questions since often it's only legal because it can be techinically considered "critical commentary" (cause ya know those youtube commentators are really a thoughtful, critical bunch). If music was only pay-for-play, and especially if it was only in physical releases, then no I wouldn't have access to a lot of the music I want and yes only people with a lot of extra money after all bills paid (which is a small minority these days) could enjoy all the music they love. Many artists wouldn't find an audience, and being a music connesieur would instead mostly just be a priviledge for the wealthy rather than anybody with a viable passion for the art.

Look I understand that they should be paid for the work that they do, and I always tip the band at the local shows cause I know they're not getting a paycheck for their gig. And illegal downloading is, thanks captain obvious, illegal, though going after people who download is like putting the pot smoker rather than the dealer in jail, it solves nothing.

However, I think in many positive ways the digital revolution and making music much more widely accessible through the internet has opened a lot more doors for both musicians and music fans out there even if it may have cut off some oxegyn for the industry and professional musicians as a whole. So many more artists have an oppurtunity to get heard by a larger audience and self-produce their own work, leading to a lot more artistic freedom they wouldn't have had in a previous era. It's also great for music fans in that they can listen and try new forms of music they may have been weary of doing before since it used to cost a couple hours pay, and also budding young artists whose wider reportoire of listening can often create much more eclectic, diverse compositions in the process.

I guess to cut the rambling short I understand the financial dilemma it can put some artists in, where many have to do music as a side project and work jobs elsewhere, but the digital revolution is not going back in the box and we shouldn't shun the many oppurtunities it provides just because some prefer the old ways of doing things. And it shouldn't just be a priviledge for those with disposable income. Yes it's like when someone says "You can only appreciate it on Vinyl", you do realize Vinyl costs a lot of money and probably miss what you're perhaps accidentely implying there.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Anonymous — Sat, 3 Sep 2016 03:30:58 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/03/2016 07:30

Norman Bates wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/10/06/epargne-francais-loisirs-salaires-economie_n_8251330.html

"11 million French people have only €10 left a month for leisure and savings".

I bet the little whining b*tches download their music too! Sad world.

yeah honestly that was the point I was halfheartedly trying to make a few pages ago. I do believe artists should get money whenever possible but I fucking hate the idea that only the sufficiently wealthy are permitted to be (recorded) music nerds

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Norman Bates — Sat, 3 Sep 2016 03:13:57 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 09/03/2016 07:13

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/10/06...51330.html

"11 million French people have only €10 left a month for leisure and savings".

I bet the little whining b*tches download their music too! Sad world.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Temporary33 — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 23:16:56 GMT

Author: Temporary33

Posted: 09/03/2016 03:16

Not certain which side of the fence I fall in at this point in time. I used to support piracy and what not, but I suppose I've switched up my viewpoint since then. I think that it's alright to listen to music for free so long as the album or song in question is only listened to a few times at most for free. I liken it to eating food samples. Yea, you get to taste the food a few times, but then would it be right to start taking the boxes of food the store sells (assuming you could do that)? Illegally downloading something, to me, is just a way to sample what you're getting and if you're listening to an album more than a few times after illegally downloading it, then you probably already know whether or not you'd want to purchase it.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

craola — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 18:36:24 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 09/02/2016 22:36

forkboy84 wrote:

Also, why is putting an "album" up on Soundcloud or Mega dot com for free any different than handing out a demo CD/tape at a gig?

liike Tap drop'd, it's way better for the environment to download than to jewel case it.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

forkboy84 — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:44:16 GMT

Author: forkboy84

Posted: 09/02/2016 19:44

Romanelli wrote:

The reason I'm going here is that unless you are a name, you don't make good money playing live. If you're playing live, your best bet at any decent pay is a healthy tip jar and people buying your stuff. Which includes your albums. But why buy an album at a show if you can download it later for free? Who is that helping?

I don't care if it's me, or if it's Borejko, or if it's Metallica. If you download our music for free, you're stealing from us. Plain and simple. If you've decided that you'd like to make your music available for free because you think it's "good exposure", you're doing the rest of us a disservice. Why buy that guy's music when I can get it from this guy for free? Not cool. It tells people that music should be free when it should not be.

A lot of your post is fair enough. But I definitely take issue here. Why buy that guy's music when I can get it free from this guy? Because I like Artist A & am ambivalent towards Artist B. Nine Inch Nails releasing Ghosts for free didn't mean I never wanted to buy another record again. Ditto Radiohead selling In Rainbows for whatever price you wanted to pay. Music isn't some limited commodity. The comparison here to playing live for free just doesn't wash at all. After I've listened to free album A I can go on & listen to album B which I paid for, it's not like I can only consume a handful of records every month.

Also, why is putting an "album" up on Soundcloud or Mega dot com for free any different than handing out a demo CD/tape at a gig? Except now you can get your demo out to people all over the world rather than just a couple of towns nearby that you play show sin. That's about it. Bands have always handed out free demos when they are starting out. I've got an old radio promo album of the Sex Pistols that my dad got his hands on back in '76 I think. That wasn't diminishing other punk bands.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Hayden — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 15:09:58 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 09/02/2016 19:09

I'm all for downloading music. I think it allows for a much larger distribution of music, which results in potentially millions of dollars worth of PR for artists.

Of course, if you like an album, and you want the artist to make more albums, it's best to buy a physical copy of it or go see their show when they're in town.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

manurock — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 14:55:33 GMT

Author: manurock

Posted: 09/02/2016 18:55

Thanks to "illegal" downloads I have been able to discover much new music I wouldn't have. When there were no illegal downloads, people lended music to eachother, but that was limited. This gives us access to all music.

Having said that, when I like an album, I tend to buy it. I try to have at least one album from all the bands I listen to bought on CD. I understand that it is part of their living (not all, they earn from concerts and such) and I try to support all artists/bands, both big and small, though I try to buy especially albums from small artists/bands than from large ones.

If we all spent the money we would spend anyway if there were no "illegal" downloads, this would work. I think that, as in many topics, education is more important than prosecution.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Tap — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 14:44:33 GMT

Author: Tap

Posted: 09/02/2016 18:44

I buy digital releases because I don't need physical resources to be wasted to make music real for me. Do I win all the ethics?

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

souplipton — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 13:45:08 GMT

Author: souplipton

Posted: 09/02/2016 17:45

I buy music on vinyl, and almost every record I've bought was one which I had downloaded. I'm not going to spend money on a record if I don't love the album, so I need a way to find out if an album is worth buying. I need to give an album a couple listens before making that decision, so I download music, and if I love it I'll buy the record. If I don't love the album then I probably won't listen to it all that much after that point. So, if it's an album I'm going to listen to then I'll buy it, and if it's not an album I'm going to listen to then I won't buy it. Bands are getting money for the albums that are listened to, and not paid for the album that are not listened to, downloading just gives me more information before I spend my money. There are some bands whose albums I haven't been able to find in my local record stores, and so yeah, it's not a perfect system, but I'd buy a lot less music if I had to go in blind on every purchase, so it increases the amount I spend. I sometimes use Spotify to fill this role, which is slightly better I guess, but not greatly different in my mind due to the extremely low royalties.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

craola — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 13:23:00 GMT

Author: craola

Posted: 09/02/2016 17:23

Applerill wrote:

Complaining about music piracy in 2016 is like complaining about horse theft in NYC circa 1987.

what! does. this_mean/?

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Applerill — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 11:23:03 GMT

Author: Applerill

Posted: 09/02/2016 15:23

Complaining about music piracy in 2016 is like complaining about horse theft in NYC circa 1987. There are many more musicians today making stuff for fun than there are trying to make a career out of it. I know some people have nostalgia for a simpler time when people didn't have the whole world of music at their fingertips, but I think it's fair to say that those days are behind us. What we need to think about now is how to use the current streaming system to make it work for those few that want to make careers.

I'm sorry if my gym membership comments offended anyone, because in the words of the immortal SquishypuffDave, I honestly don't give a shit if you don't want to support artists. However, if you do think it's an issue, then I think the exclusivity-system (which might be going away 🙁 ) might have been a good antidote to that, and it'd be great if you tried to jump on.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Necharsian — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:59:24 GMT

Author: Necharsian

Posted: 09/02/2016 14:59

remember when people hated artists for "selling out"? Now people hate artists for doing the exact opposite. what a world

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

Anonymous — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 10:19:08 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/02/2016 14:19

Romanelli wrote:

If you've decided that you'd like to make your music available for free because you think it's "good exposure", you're doing the rest of us a disservice. Why buy that guy's music when I can get it from this guy for free? Not cool. It tells people that music should be free when it should not be.

I really don't see how this is different from your mate baking a cake and bringing it to a party and then dismissing it because it's putting bakers out of business, then explaining that he's telling people cakes should be free when they shouldn't be.

Writing music can be a hobby. Not everyone who's doing their hobby for free is 'not cool' for doing what professionals do.

Re: Point of Discussion: The Ethics of Downloading Music

RockyRaccoon — Fri, 2 Sep 2016 08:46:17 GMT

Author: RockyRaccoon

Posted: 09/02/2016 12:46

Romanelli wrote:

See, I can't really get behind that. As an artist who has given away his music for free, I just want people to listen to it, I don't give a shit if I make a dime off of it, I make the music for it to be listened to.

Honestly, that's ultimately why I make music, for people to listen to something I create. I once heard Harlan Coben say that people who say they just "write for themselves", not caring if anyone reads it are like people who say they just talk to themselves, they don't care if anyone hears it, it makes no sense. Making music is the same way. I don't make music just for myself, and I don't make it to make money, I make it for people to listen to it. If I want people to pay for it then I will ask (and that's why I like bandcamp's "pay if you want" feature), but generally, I just want people to hear it.

That's partially why I feel like Spotify is a nice middle ground, because people can easily listen to my music and I'm not *technically* giving it away for free, although I basically am.