Best Ever Albums

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

babyBlueSedan — Sun, 27 Nov 2016 10:35:22 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 11/27/2016 15:35

Oceanic wins 13-1

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Anonymous — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:25:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/26/2016 12:25

Gowi wrote:

before I get exponentially more upset

More than this? 🤣
Seriously though, i'm sorry, i didnt mean to get you upset. I think you misunderstood the tone of my post. Considering what you've written it seems you took my whole post as a "shut up, that's just your opinion!" while it wasn't supposed to be like that. It was more like "i can totally get that you don't like it, considering you're a purist of the genre and all". And i was stating my opinion of it being balanced basing on a comparison with other albums, but nevermind this now. I never said or implied you were telling people to not like it or such things, really.
Also i thought our discussion was interesting, i'm sorry if you founded it the opposite.

Ps: sorry everyone for the OT and also for the delay, i've been busy yesterday afternoon and i was out with no connection last night.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

NoisyBeast — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 00:17:30 GMT

Author: NoisyBeast

Posted: 11/26/2016 05:17

Quote:

I'd be curious to hear about some sludge metal you find better than Oceanic.

...going back to the origins of sludge metal; Side two of "My War" at least earns "proto-sludge" status, or punk-influenced sludge metal.

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My War by Black Flag

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

cestuneblague — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 11:01:17 GMT

Author: cestuneblague

Posted: 11/25/2016 16:01

Don't start a riot, boys

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

mickilennial — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:16:52 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 11/25/2016 15:16

Quote:

i think Oceanic is perfectly balanced between the two components

And I exactly disagree and I explained why with the song references and my central dialogue. There isn’t enough sludge elements to justify it being “balanced”— it has more arthouse atmospherics (aka post-rock and ambient influences) than it has sludge percussion, tone, riffwork, or energy. I honestly do not know what more to say before I turn into repeating myself. This isn’t a circular argument, I’m actually giving supporting evidence.

Quote:

But it's unfair to call it the antithesis of the genre.

No, it’s not unfair if you understand the perspective of the opinion. I have never deliberated it as fact so I suggest you not imply that I have. I have very elaborately gone to explain my opinions on Oceanic— and by extension Isis and Atmospheric Sludge Metal, it is unfair to purposely regard what I have put the time in explaining as essentially purposeless.

Quote:

Well that's about taste.

I’m sorry but… no fucking shit? Did I say somewhere that my analysis was objective or factual? No? Then don’t bother with these kind of phrases at all, it cheapens the dialogue.

Quote:

As for the parts of the songs you listed, i think you are taking it too strictly.

Yes. That’s the point of stating an analysis based on my experiences, preferences, and understanding of the root genre. The whole idea of that part of my reply is exactly that I am looking at it from an “orthodox” or “purist” angle and that for me these are the reasons why it is not good or enjoyable— I am not fucking preaching to you like genres are rigid fucking rulebooks, I am not telling anyone they cannot enjoy something, and I am definitely not going on a tirade based on fact.

Quote:

It can be appreciated or not.

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Look. You either need to drop this before I get exponentially more upset or actually understand what I’m conveying during my whole dialogue. I came into this giving a neutral perspective of why I think Oceanic isn’t a good album for me and I would never vote for it— blue replied to me and a conversation was elaborated on. This was never me telling people to not like or find Oceanic interesting for their personal taste and it is really patronizing to come at me with these points that I never implied, stated, or intended in my damn posts. So cut the “well that’s just an opinion” bullshit. To pull one out of an older BEA member’s playbook— I do not have to put “in my opinion” at the end of every fucking post I make and I refuse to do so.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Anonymous — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 09:37:28 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/25/2016 14:37

Gowi wrote:

Well, there are certainly sludge riffs on Oceanic, but that is really about it when it comes down to it— the drumming is more subdued and has more to do with the growing styles used in post-rock than the d-beat pressure of sludge drumming, and the vocals still have the anger and discontent but they are drawn out at times to feel more melodramatically emotive which I connect more with emotive hardcore bands than sludge ones.

Sludge metal drumming is not necessarily d-beat, it depends. But yeah, ofc it's still an atmospheric sludge album and not a traditional sludge one. Still, while other atm sludge albums i've heard sounded overall closer to post rock than to sludge, i think Oceanic is perfectly balanced between the two components. Well, if you totally dislike the atmospheric work in this genre it's normal that you don't like it. But it's unfair to call it the antithesis of the genre.

Gowi wrote:

slow/soft segments that aren’t particularly interesting or useful

Well that's about taste. I can tell you f.e. that the first minutes of "Carry", with all their atmosphere, really are beautiful and useful for me as they enhance the overall sense of desolation i get from the album.
As for the parts of the songs you listed, i think you are taking it too strictly. Sure some parts are more heavy and some are more atmospheric, but there's crossover between the two. They cohexist and complement each other to make the album what it is. It can be appreciated or not.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

mickilennial — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 00:09:54 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 11/25/2016 05:09

Well, there are certainly sludge riffs on Oceanic, but that is really about it when it comes down to it— the drumming is more subdued and has more to do with the growing styles used in post-rock than the d-beat pressure of sludge drumming, and the vocals still have the anger and discontent but they are drawn out at times to feel more melodramatically emotive which I connect more with emotive hardcore bands than sludge ones.

There are only six songs that have anything reminiscent of sludge identity and none of them are for the duration of the entire song; preferring to turn the album into what makes atmospheric sludge a precursor to post-metal with flowerly progressions, slow/soft segments that aren’t particularly interesting or useful, and nuances that just makes certain songs drop out from being energetic, dynamic, and fun into trying to make some sort of emotional structure. These six songs have okay moments, but I struggle listening to this album for the same reasons I stated in my other posts and this one, I get bored and disinterested with something that is the antithesis of what sludge is about and what it still sort of represented in 2002.

If you are curious the six songs that had sludge moments, I documented thusly— The Other (3:11-4:20), False Light (0:01-2:59), Carry (4:15-6:46), Weight (9:25-10:00), From Sinking (0:01-4:24), and Hym (2:29-4:37)

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 18:22:57 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/24/2016 23:22

Gowi wrote:

Not to be patronizing, but there’s little to nothing representing sludge metal on this release

I could agree if you were talking about later Isis or other atmospheric sludge bands, but Oceanic has still much sludge in, imo.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

babyBlueSedan — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 12:14:37 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 11/24/2016 17:14

Cool, thanks, that gives me more stuff to check out after this tourney is over. I do like When the Kite String Pops but it's such a muddy album it may take me more listens to enjoy fully. Heard a lot about Eyehategod but haven't listened to them.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

mickilennial — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:10:13 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 11/24/2016 16:10

babyBlueSedan wrote:

It's funny because I think I actually agree with this. I absolutely adore Oceanic and Panopticon, but my search for similar albums I enjoy has left me mostly empty handed. Even Neurosis, who are probably the biggest name in the genre, tend to build their songs too slowly for me to keep interest in. Isis on the other hand feel more hard hitting - even when their songs are slowly building to something bigger they don't lose their heaviness. They manage to make their music formless and fluid while still making you feel like your being crushed under a bunch of wet cement.

Probably also helps that sludge is one of the metal genres I'm least versed in, outside of Boris, Melvins, and early Mastodon. Don't want to make this a thread about sludge metal when there's another album in this matchup that's very worth hearing, but I'd be curious to hear about some sludge metal you find better than Oceanic.

Now, this is going into territory of my preferences; and I admit I am oddly a bit more orthodox and “purist” in my thinking with sludge metal (yet I am the antithesis of that in progressive metal, black metal, etc.). But to really dissect what I like about sludge you have to go back to what the genre started out being in the first place. Sludge was one of the earliest developments to come out of metal by remerging it with the aggressive and filterless hardcore and crust punk that existed in the early development of thrash and speed metal except y’know this time it was with doom metal instead. It’s rarely seen as sensible in metal communities to call sludge metal the purest of “metalcore” derivatives, but the source material is there.

Whilst early groups like the Melvins and Fudge Tunnel were trying to get an idea what sludge metal represented in its earliest years it wasn’t until a few notable acts really hammered the point home by making feedback-laden riffs with aggressive d-beat style drumming and almost swampy doom metal aesthetics. A friend of mine once described orthodox/traditional sludge metal as “stoner rock’s drunk, angry, and unintelligent uncle” and if you take a look at it... it’s not too far off. To get an idea of conventional sludge metal before the experimentation of Neurosis, Isis, and so on really took over the genre— just take a look to the UK and the American South where bands like Iron Monkey, Eyehategod, Crowbar, Cavity, Breach, Acid Bath, and others continued the framework laid down without turning the genre into an arthouse spectacle.

The kind of sludge I like is, like I said, dynamic and fun; unapologetic and aggressive yet as heavy as the sinking waves. I just wish when you say “Sludge Metal” people don’t think of some post-metal precursor when from the onset it was so very different. There’s also the fact it is very frustrating that is very hard to find good sludge acts that are around today that aren’t these overblown “arthouse” sludge bands. When I want to listen to sludge I want it to hit me hard and without restraint.

Link

But to answer the question of what is essentially what is the best sludge metal album in my opinion? Probably Acid Bath's debut, though really any number of the albums/bands I mentioned could make an argument against it one way or another. I’m obviously a big fan of Eyehategod, Melvins, Iron Monkey (who didn’t make enough albums, IMO), 16, and plenty of other acts.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

babyBlueSedan — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:27:10 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 11/24/2016 15:27

Gowi wrote:

Atmospheric Sludge is a hard sell for me when as I said it represent nothing about what makes sludge interesting, dynamic, and well… fun.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

mickilennial — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 05:37:35 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 11/24/2016 10:37

Oceanic is the antithesis of what I like about sludge metal. I respect Isis and similar bands that took challenging new directions in a genre that was aesthetically simplistic; however, my opinion has not changed about atmospheric sludge (or post-sludge if you prefer) in the last ten or so years of listening to metal musicians consistently. Oceanic is a solid album and its influence is already well stated among metal publications and fan consensus, but it really really reminds me of a single train of thought when listening to it—

I could be listening to an actual sludge metal album.

And every single time when I listen to it, that’s exactly what I do. Not to be patronizing, but there’s little to nothing representing sludge metal on this release, but that’s the curse of atmospheric sludge as a genre attempting to alleviate something beyond its original purpose, intent, tone, and themes. Even if this had not been going up against one of my favorite avant-garde metal releases I would still say the same and probably vote the same. Atmospheric Sludge is a hard sell for me when as I said it represent nothing about what makes sludge interesting, dynamic, and well… fun. At least Funeral Doom Metal, another doom metal development of artistic progression, keeps something about the original framework in mind. I know atmospheric sludge is popular and my opinion will likely not change any minds, but it is what it is.

As for the Akphaezya release— it’s one of the most iconic avant-garde metal releases, and if you feel it is too “out there” it is probably due to the fact that is exactly the point. Other contemporaries such as Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Unexpect, and Diablo Swing Orchestra all take similar approaches to things as they take a frantic sense of artistic expression within experimental progressive frameworks to create something that is really special. This is an album that isn’t a run-of-the-mil sort of “prog by numbers” progressive metal release— this isn’t Spiral Architect, Spastic Ink, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, or so on; this is the avant-garde side of progressive metal, the weird and the unrestrained; the completely insane and obtusely planned. I could’ve picked albums more feasible to BEA’s taste and more central favorites of mine, but I feel we wouldn’t be learning or listening to anything new if I did that.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Anonymous — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:02:58 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 11/24/2016 02:02

Anthology IV: The Tragedy of Nerak is another good album that deserves recognition, and that made me hesitate a little to choose Isis. But my vote went all the same to oceanic.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Temporary33 — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:24:24 GMT

Author: Temporary33

Posted: 11/23/2016 19:24

Akphaezya was pretty good. Wished the artist did swing music instead of this because there's a lot of potential given the vocals and talents of the group.

Vote to Isis.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

HazeyTwilight — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:29:55 GMT

Author: HazeyTwilight

Posted: 11/21/2016 21:29

Anthology IV is a damn good album (well, considering it's a Gowi nom and I know he doesn't fuck around when it comes to metal). It was a very fun listen with a lot of diverse musical ideas being played around by great musicianship. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

However, it's going up against an album by one of my favourite metal bands ever. Even though I'm more of a Panopticon person, myself, Oceanic hits you like a tonne of bricks.

This is a tough one, but I'm going to go with Oceanic.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

Graeme2 — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:11:08 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 11/21/2016 21:11

Maybe the easiest vote so far. That oceanic is a classic of sludge or whatever it is, post metal etc. along with their next album. Enough said.
When I listened to anthology IV the first thing I thought is it's going to be a marmite record. People will really hate and others will think its marvellous. First off, it's possibly the most prog album I think I've ever heard. I don't think I've listened to anything with as many styles and genres as this. They even rap at one point! I feel quite the opposite to babybluesedan. I don't think it is coherent. It felt like being battered from everywhere, like watching five different tv shows at once and trying to follow the content. Lots of prog metal is just plain naff, this mostly isn't, apart from utopia which was a bit. When it started I enjoyed the first couple but then it just started getting more daft as it went, with points when it relaxed to really hit some highs. The piano piece was one of them. Overall I just felt anxious listening to it. Bit of a strange one as some people will love it for the exact reasons that I don't. Frustrating though quite unlike anything I've heard before.

Re: Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

babyBlueSedan — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:05:55 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 11/21/2016 19:05

This is a tough one for me. I was pleasantly surprised by Anthology IV - I felt it was more cohesive than a lot of the prog metal I've heard. It still had the tempo / time signature shifts and everything but they felt more justified than in other similar albums I've heard. Hard to explain what I mean, but while a lot of prog strikes me as complex for the sake of being complex the changes in this album actually made this album more interesting. I especially liked the jazzy segments in the middle third.

However, it's going up against my nomination and perhaps my favorite sludge metal album. I listed to it again this weekend and was once again blown away by how heavy and powerful it sounds. And honestly the last few minutes of "Weight" have more incredible moments than all of Anthology IV did. I would have voted for Anthology IV in several other matchups this round but it had a tough draw here.

Best Metal Album, Round 1: Oceanic vs Anthology IV

babyBlueSedan — Sun, 20 Nov 2016 22:29:25 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 11/21/2016 03:29

Round 1 Matchup:

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Oceanic by Isis

(nominated by babyBlueSedan)

vs.

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Anthology IV: The Tragedy Of Nerak by Akphaezya

(nominated by Gowi)