Best Ever Albums

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Graeme2 — Mon, 7 Aug 2017 03:01:34 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 08/07/2017 07:01

souplipton wrote:

Yann wrote:

Graeme2 wrote:

Yann wrote:

[quote="craola" ]the arctic monkeys have more top 100 albums here than bjork does.

defend that coherently and convince me that's in any way ok.

It's pure and simple misogyny

Of course there is no other reason in the world. Maybe it's because people are racist toward people from Iceland? Maybe it's because she is too old and not young and looking fit? Or maybe, just maybe, crazy as it may seem, the arctic monkeys music is liked by a greater number of people because it is far more accessible and they happen to be a massive act and thats the reason. Maybe its a mixture of all of that to some extent. I'd take most of what bjork has recorded over most of AM by the way. Such and such should be higher in the chart but they are gay so that's the reason, such and such is Chinese and that's the reason they aren't higher in the chart. Most of my charts are male, US/UK, white, heterosexual dominant. Only one conclusion to draw from that eh.

If you will, but in the case of Bjork (and other major female artists), it's mainly unwitting misogyny

I know I'm late to the conversation, but here's my two cents on the Bjork stuff. Bjork produces music that I'd describe as mostly being based in electronics, which is something that doesn't get a ton of love on BEA. Bjork is ranked #60 on the Top-Ranked artists chart for BEA, and only 3 artists rated above Bjork have Electronic or Electronica listed as a genre on the artist's Wikipedia page (which I will admit is not a great proxy for which genre of music an artist makes, but I'm still going to roll with it). Those 3 artists are Radiohead, David Bowie, and Sufjan Stevens (for Stevens, electronica is the 8th and final genre listed for him). So according to BEA, Bjork is the fourth best electronic/electronica artist. So I'd be hesitant to say that the main bias against her is her gender, and not her genre. This is a site where Boards of Canada is the 182nd ranked artist (highest album is ranked 261), Aphex Twin is the 168th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 298), New Order is the 137th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 305), Kraftwerk is the 136th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 271), Massive Attack is the 111th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 154), Daft Punk is the 100th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 147), and Depeche Mode is the 87th ranked artist (highest album is ranked 136, 5 spots ahead of Homogenic). Bjork outranks most of the greatest electronic artists of all-time. This is not to say that her gender has nothing to do with her not having any albums in the top 100, but that it's role is probably secondary to the fact that she produces primarily electronic music.[/quote]

Yep, good stuff. And the stand out thing here is Kraftwerk is only at 136. Now THAT is absurd. I draw the same conclusion here as you as to why, others may say its because they are German.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

souplipton — Mon, 7 Aug 2017 02:38:57 GMT

Author: souplipton

Posted: 08/07/2017 06:38

Yann wrote:

Graeme2 wrote:

Yann wrote:

craola wrote:

the arctic monkeys have more top 100 albums here than bjork does.

defend that coherently and convince me that's in any way ok.

It's pure and simple misogyny

If you will, but in the case of Bjork (and other major female artists), it's mainly unwitting misogyny

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sun, 6 Aug 2017 17:21:03 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/06/2017 21:21

rkm wrote:

I've been thinking further on this.

Some problematic things:
- Not everyone has heard all of the albums
- Without having heard all of the significant albums, how can any individual make informed judgements on "the greatest"?
- Humans tend to prefer things they've heard many times
- For many years (less so now) the music biz establishment controlled what people heard, over and over
- Western patriarchal culture has favoured a predominantly western white and male bias
- How has that bias effected the range of music we've been exposed to in our lifetimes?
- Many music fans are only interested in music as it has occurred in their lifetime, and aren't interested in digging into the past, which disadvantages older albums and favours newer albums.

Me as a case study. I like jazz, even play it to a certain degree. My exposure to jazz has mainly been through my own effort. Geographically, there is no jazz scene where I live, there is no jazz on the radio or other casual method of discovery. So, here I am a self-confessed jazz fan, 44 years old, and the first time I heard Mingus' "Black Saint & the Sinner Lady" was this year. I bought it immediately. It's incredible. But had I heard it first when I was 16, I'm sure it would hold a more significant place in my life by now than it currently does. This is how an album like that sits at 150, when it could be top 10 if certain biases were taken into account.

I'm not saying there is a better method of tallying the albums than there currently is, but it would certainly be interesting to apply an algorithm to the top 1000 to adjust for femaleness, blackness, non-western-ness, and age.

Interesting comment, rkm, but I'm not sure of your last sentence: such algorithm would be positive discrimination 😮
+ after all, it's normal that westerners listen traditionnally to the music they happened to create (wich does not prevent exoticism, especially in the process of creation)

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Graeme2 — Sun, 6 Aug 2017 16:17:59 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 08/06/2017 20:17

Yann wrote:

boyd94 wrote:

You're going to have to do better than that. As others are pointing out, plenty of major jazz artists aren't in the top 100. Is BEA racist?

Bjork's music doesn't lend itself to a wide audience. I don't think it's any more sinister than that.

And plenty of classical music is not in the top 100 either. So no racism involved. Different genres. Not a reason, I know, but these kind of charts sites are traditionaly more focused on pop/rock. Yet with Bjork or PJ Harvey, this is rock/pop. The word misogyny is too strong ? Ok, let's say there is more male artists than female artists (but why ?), and in consequence that we men (a majority here) are more accustomed to male voice. :)

Might be a lot to do with the music press, who down the years are always trying to tell you about the next great white band who are nearly always a bunch of young blokes playing some form of rock pop indie. Definitely more focused in that direction. Certainly what I was reading in the early 90s was. Things like NME. Things are getting better hopefully. As I've got older I've expanded my palette and the things I'd look to first when I was younger (the new hip white male indie band) are probably at the back of the queue and I'd probably rather listen to bjork, jazz, metal, folk, hip hop or Ethiopian funk prog jazz. Over arctic monkeys or the new arcade fire. Most of the prolific users on here are pretty cool and have diverse charts/tastes. Anyways, I admit to not giving bjork enough time myself over the years as I was never massive on her first, but that was a mistake. Just looked at my overall and there's a shocking lack of females! 🫢

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

janetjakcson — Sun, 6 Aug 2017 10:53:39 GMT

Author: janetjakcson

Posted: 08/06/2017 14:53

Definitely Rhythm Nation by Janet. It's a great album and her work has been kind of forgotten since 2004

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sun, 6 Aug 2017 04:57:40 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/06/2017 08:57

boyd94 wrote:

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

boyd94 — Sun, 6 Aug 2017 03:38:52 GMT

Author: boyd94

Posted: 08/06/2017 07:38

Yann wrote:

No that is not what I'm saying. This is sophism ! 😮 My "reasoning" is : Bjork is a major (oups, another "objective" word) artist, whose albums are worth many albums in the top 100, but they are not there. Same reasoning with other "major" female artists (PJ Harvey for instance). I conclude, and I sense (because I'm like that myself), that we are, in spite of us, a bit misogynist, yes.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

AfterHours — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 19:19:03 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 08/05/2017 23:19

Speaking of Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, it should be in the Top 1. It doesnt matter where -- just anywhere within the Top 1 would be just fine.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 18:40:34 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/05/2017 22:40

Graeme2 wrote:

But to misogyny IS the reason why bjork isn't higher in the chart is in my view totally wide of the mark. That's basically saying if you're not a fan of her and you are male then the reason is because you are a misogynist.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Graeme2 — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 15:05:56 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 08/05/2017 19:05

Yann wrote:

Graeme2 wrote:

Yann wrote:

craola wrote:

the arctic monkeys have more top 100 albums here than bjork does.

defend that coherently and convince me that's in any way ok.

It's pure and simple misogyny

If you will, but in the case of Bjork (and other major female artists), it's mainly unwitting misogyny

I'm sure it plays a part to some level for all female artists. But to misogyny IS the reason why bjork isn't higher in the chart is in my view totally wide of the mark. That's basically saying if you're not a fan of her and you are male then the reason is because you are a misogynist. Maybe you just don't like her. I was out with a pal last night talking music and i dscovered hes not a bjork fan at all, after I mentioned I'd picked up her last on vinyl. He then talked about how great the last abba album is. So I concluded that what sex an artist is probably isn't an issue for him. I have another pal who is a big music fan who I've never once heard talk about a female act, so not sure what that's about.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

buzzdainer — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 13:33:30 GMT

Author: buzzdainer

Posted: 08/05/2017 17:33

If I were in charge around here, I'd probably boot Weezer's Pinkerton from the top 100. I don't even think it's Weezer's best album, and Weezer isn't an important enough band in my opinion to justify more than one album in the top 100 of all time.

Joni Mitchell's Blue sits just outside the top 100 currently, and it just got a bit of extra attention for being #1 on NPR Music's list of the top 150 albums of all time by women. Say what you want about making that sort of list, or about whether or not you think Blue deserves the #1 position--but I think it's an absolutely great album that deserves more love here.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 12:38:32 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/05/2017 16:38

Graeme2 wrote:

Yann wrote:

craola wrote:

the arctic monkeys have more top 100 albums here than bjork does.

defend that coherently and convince me that's in any way ok.

It's pure and simple misogyny

If you will, but in the case of Bjork (and other major female artists), it's mainly unwitting misogyny

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 11:50:53 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/05/2017 15:50

The top 100 is really missing some absolute classics from genres like hip hop, jazz and metal. Instead it's filled up with lesser good alt rock and indie rock albums. I find it really strange that albums like The Suburbs and Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not sit comfortably in the top 50, while Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers), Madvillainy, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, Endtroducing..... and Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven are not even in the top 100. To add to it all, there's also 4(!) Radiohead albums in the top 20, including The fucking Bends! I like Radiohead, but please. The site is kinda biased TBH.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Anonymous — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 10:52:34 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 08/05/2017 14:52

Jorbaa wrote:

The 2 albums from Kendrick Lamar should leave the top 100

🫵

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Jorbaa — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 10:44:34 GMT

Author: Jorbaa

Posted: 08/05/2017 14:44

The 2 albums from Kendrick Lamar should leave the top 100

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Mechalodon — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 10:07:48 GMT

Author: Mechalodon

Posted: 08/05/2017 14:07

Yeah, Black Saint and the Sinner Lady definitely should be in the top 100.
I also feel like List your Skinny Fists and Spiderland should be in there...
36 Chambers and Endtroducing are milestones too and I'd like to see them up there.
You know I don't think anyone would flip their shit if one of the 20 Radiohead albums in the top 100 dropped out.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Graeme2 — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:50:58 GMT

Author: Graeme2

Posted: 08/05/2017 12:50

Yann wrote:

craola wrote:

the arctic monkeys have more top 100 albums here than bjork does.

defend that coherently and convince me that's in any way ok.

It's pure and simple misogyny

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

rkm — Sat, 5 Aug 2017 08:16:09 GMT

Author: rkm

Posted: 08/05/2017 12:16

I've been thinking further on this.

Some problematic things:
- Not everyone has heard all of the albums
- Without having heard all of the significant albums, how can any individual make informed judgements on "the greatest"?
- Humans tend to prefer things they've heard many times
- For many years (less so now) the music biz establishment controlled what people heard, over and over
- Western patriarchal culture has favoured a predominantly western white and male bias
- How has that bias effected the range of music we've been exposed to in our lifetimes?
- Many music fans are only interested in music as it has occurred in their lifetime, and aren't interested in digging into the past, which disadvantages older albums and favours newer albums.

Me as a case study. I like jazz, even play it to a certain degree. My exposure to jazz has mainly been through my own effort. Geographically, there is no jazz scene where I live, there is no jazz on the radio or other casual method of discovery. So, here I am a self-confessed jazz fan, 44 years old, and the first time I heard Mingus' "Black Saint & the Sinner Lady" was this year. I bought it immediately. It's incredible. But had I heard it first when I was 16, I'm sure it would hold a more significant place in my life by now than it currently does. This is how an album like that sits at 150, when it could be top 10 if certain biases were taken into account.

I'm not saying there is a better method of tallying the albums than there currently is, but it would certainly be interesting to apply an algorithm to the top 1000 to adjust for femaleness, blackness, non-western-ness, and age.

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

Rhyner — Fri, 4 Aug 2017 16:14:51 GMT

Author: Rhyner

Posted: 08/04/2017 20:14

Yann wrote:

I think the question is rather : is there objectivity in art ?

Objectivity is about true or false, correct or incorrect. It's independent of opinion, feelings, and subjective points of view.
Subjectivity is about opinion, feelings, and personal viewpoint. It depends completely on whoever the subject is.

Can you be factually right or wrong about which 100 albums are the greatest of all time? Obviously that depends on how precisely you define "greatest of all time" (and "albums", and "100" 🤣 ).

Most of us have a very loose definition of "greatest of all time" and we aren't at all rigorous when we make our top 100 list. We like whatever we happen to like, and the correct ranking for us is what feels best at the time we do the ranking. I've seen some people who rate each track on an album and average them for an album rating, then rank albums by this rating. This adds a level of objectivity, in that they can do the math right or wrong and the ranking can be correct or incorrect, objectively, when fed their track ratings. But clearly this hasn't erased subjectivity from the process, because they had to come up with the track ratings in the first place.

This very website has that same "problem". The BEA top 100 list results from applying an objective process (assigning points to albums on users' lists and tallying them up) to a subjective source (the lists themselves). You might object that BEA is better overall than an individual's list because it isn't sourced from a single individual, but is a composite opinion of many individuals, and therefore gets closer to objectivity.

But pretending there are shades of objectivity is just obscuring what I believe to be the heart of the issue. And that is that it all depends on how we define things.

Math and logic are objective because they have clearly defined axioms and rules of inference. If you disagree with math or logic, then either you haven't understood it or you're just being silly. The evaluation of art is nothing like that. There are some things that most people will agree on (e.g., a piece with some semblance of melody, rhythm, harmony, etc. is better than one lacking in all these areas; hence the general preference of Beethoven to boyd94's dump session), but this is nowhere as clear-cut as the axioms of math and logic.

It's only when we clearly define what we mean by "greatest of all time" that we can begin the process of objectively ranking albums and coming up with a top 100 list.

Here's one attempt at a definition: The greatest albums of all time are the albums that accumulate the most points when we apply BEA's point-tallying algorithm to all eligible album charts in BEA's database. Now here's something to work with! Assuming we define any fuzzy terms here ("BEA's point-tallying algorithm", "eligible album charts", etc.), we can now produce an objective list of the greatest albums of all time! Apparently I was wrong. BEA's list is objective after all!

But there's a problem. Rateyourmusic.com proposes a competing definition of "greatest of all time". As does acclaimedmusic.net, and Rolling Stone, and Yann, and AfterHours, and me, and countless other people/websites/publications/etc. Which one do we accept?

We don't worry about competing systems ("definitions") of math and logic because if they're worth their salt they're going to be isomorphic to (i.e. correlate one-to-one with) our current systems of math and logic anyway, so they're basically the same thing. But what does it mean for a system of math, for instance, to be "worth its salt" and what is the equivalent concept in art?

Math is about numbers and their relations. It's used in accounting, science, engineering, etc. Simply put, when numbers pop up, math reliably helps make sense of them and make use of them. It's effective at what it does, and what it does is cleanly delineated.

Art is a whole other beast. Art is about feelings, and the human condition; it's about life itself. It's used for expression, and escapism, and community-building, and any number of other things. It can be extremely effective at what it does, but unlike math, what it does is anything but cleanly delineated. It's amorphous. It's messy.

Math is worth its salt when it effectively deals with numbers. If someone has a problem with numbers, math will come along to save the day. If that same problem crops up again, the same math will solve it. It doesn't matter who has the problem. Numbers don't care. They always work the same way. If a system of math fails to solve a math problem, then it's not worth its salt.

Art is worth its salt when...it effectively deals with feelings? with the human condition? with life itself? Art is different things to different people. You can't 100% reliably "solve" the same "problem" with the same piece of art. Especially when it's a different person having that "problem". A piece of art can be worth its salt to some people, and at the same time be less than worthless to others.

Art is subjective at its very core, because it's about feelings.

But...we all have a lot of the same feelings. To different extents, we all have many things in common: experiences, hopes and dreams, ideas, problems, relationships, and so on. It's no accident that BEA and RYM both have OK Computer in the top spot on their respective overall lists. That album has a great deal of value to a lot of people, myself included. That can't be coincidence. All we OK Computer fans have something (or some assortment of various somethings) in common that causes us to respond well to the album. Who knows what it is, but it's clearly there.

That's why lists like BEA's have value, and why you might be tempted to claim composite lists like it and its brethren are "closer to objectivity"--because they have an ability to tap into whatever it is that is shared between all those who participate in their creation, which brings to the top the albums that are most likely to have the most positive impact on any random individual in the population.

And if that's how you define "greatest of all time"--most likely to have the most positive impact on any random individual in the population--good luck figuring out how to algorithm-ize that and make a list. But you'll still get people disagreeing with that definition. In fact, no matter which definition you choose, you'll get people disagreeing. And the ensuing discussion can itself be of great value.

For what it's worth, I personally think that if you could somehow place every single experience/feeling/thought of every person who has ever lived into the mind of a single individual, all of which was present in their mind at once with perfect clarity, and ask that person for the 100 greatest albums of all time, the resulting list would be pretty solid. That is, if such a person would be willing to produce a list. I'm sure they would at least have something very interesting to say on the subject.

To answer the initial question, I think the most egregious omission from BEA's top 100--if I'm trying to be "objective"--is:

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady by Charles Mingus

Re: Which album deserves to reach / leave the BEA top 100 ?

AfterHours — Fri, 4 Aug 2017 14:39:04 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 08/04/2017 18:39

Yann wrote:

sethmadsen wrote:

Yann - that was totally messing with you/carrying on a joke.

Scaruffi is a music critic, who in some ways I like because he brings a different perspective and in some ways I often want to punch in the face because he equates artists like Limp Bizkit and The Beatles (hence AfterHours jokes).

In his second answer, I thought, hang on, perharps it is a sort of urban legend that AfterHours is telling... Oh dear.. :)

It was all true! 🤥

🤣