Best Ever Albums

Re: Best Pop Albums

Facetious — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 01:22:26 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 08/17/2020 05:22

AfterHours wrote:

Probably was at one point though may have been removed as I fine tuned a little bit my overly general/loose parameters for "Pop".

Fyi this list (or version of it) is outdated.

The genre lists are all collected now on their own thread (still not updated, still mid-compilation, but newer than this or any of the other separated ones, which arent intended for any further updates or use).

Here: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22555

Would you still include it? I don't see why not.

Yeah I know the list is outdated but I chose to post in the thread that was devoted only to the Pop list.

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Sun, 16 Aug 2020 22:42:47 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 08/17/2020 02:42

Facetious wrote:

I was somehow quite sure that Bromst was on the list or that I'd suggested it at least. Maybe I'm confusing this with your Most Upbeat Albums list.

Re: Best Pop Albums

Facetious — Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:02:56 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 08/16/2020 15:02

I was somehow quite sure that Bromst was on the list or that I'd suggested it at least. Maybe I'm confusing this with your Most Upbeat Albums list.

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Sat, 6 Jul 2019 15:32:40 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 07/06/2019 19:32

DelBocaVista wrote:

I suggest adding the Galaxie 500 album here because it seems more pop to me than Mazzy Star, maybe not more vocal-based (given all the guitar reverb) but the vocals are more "cute". Maybe I'm wrong in associating them together though.

Also Odelay or Low Kick & Hard Bop?

Good call -- all 3 are arguable/plausible and all 3 will be revisited soon 😁

Re: Best Pop Albums

DelBocaVista — Sat, 6 Jul 2019 14:53:53 GMT

Author: DelBocaVista

Posted: 07/06/2019 18:53

I suggest adding the Galaxie 500 album here because it seems more pop to me than Mazzy Star, maybe not more vocal-based (given all the guitar reverb) but the vocals are more "cute". Maybe I'm wrong in associating them together though.

Also Odelay or Low Kick & Hard Bop?

Re: what is pop

AfterHours — Fri, 24 May 2019 22:42:15 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/25/2019 02:42

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

baystateoftheart wrote:

Aft erHours wrote:

Multiple choice test to determine your answer:

(a) since 1998

(b) since the note at the top of my "Best Pop Albums" list that you didn't read 😁 🫵

(c) since roughly 1966-1967 when psychedelic pop & art pop became a more widespread phenomenon (for our purposes, such as Strawberry Fields Forever, Syd Barrett...)

(d) since we realized that "Lo-Fi Indie" isn't really a genre, as it is merely referring to a type of production or recording quality, and the type of label responsible for the release of the music. Genre-wise, it's actually just synonymous with several sub-genres of Pop, as follows: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Lo-Fi+Indie/

(e) All of the above

8)

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT or OAI are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines the former as indie folk + indie rock, and the latter as lo-fi indie + psychedelic folk + indie rock + indie folk, both of which seem much more apt than classifying them as pop. Debunking "lo-fi indie" as a distinct genre is a red herring, because on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. That link says it developed alongside several pop genres, not that it is synonymous with those genres. Just because Neutral Milk Hotel's albums have a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make them pop albums as a whole.

In regards to the RYM family trees, I wouldnt put all your stock in that, as it can be its own red herring. On that logic (taking the descriptors entirely at face value instead of the music at hand, its expressive style, purpose, reference points and connotations) an album such as Julia Holter's Aviary should be considered much more Pop than ITAOTS, which is obviously nonsense.

I don't put all my stock in them, but I think they are generally the best system online. I actually don't think that's nonsense, let alone obviously so. I think it's true. One piece of art can be simultaneously more pop and more experimental than another piece of art. But like you I'm not very interested in a lengthy debate about genre boundaries.

Works for me. Agreed that RYM is generally very reliable for genres, and agreed on the lack of interest in debating the issue -- even though I was listening to White Light White Heat, including Sister Ray, which made the discussion extra memorable and intense 🤣

Re: what is pop

baystateoftheart — Fri, 24 May 2019 22:33:03 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 05/25/2019 02:33

AfterHours wrote:

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Re: what is pop

AfterHours — Fri, 24 May 2019 22:14:09 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/25/2019 02:14

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Re: what is pop

AfterHours — Fri, 24 May 2019 21:22:06 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/25/2019 01:22

baystateoftheart wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

Even considering your intro, it's a reasonable question. Zero of the RYM primary or secondary genres currently assigned to ITAOTT are in the pop genre tree. RYM currently defines it as indie folk + indie rock, which seems much more apt. Debunking "lo-fi indie" is a red herring, as that's only listed as a secondary genre, and on RYM it's a subgenre of indie rock anyway. Just because the album has a couple tracks with catchy hooks and pop song structures does not make it a pop album as a whole.

I didn't think it was a bad question actually. A through E combined (or "all of the above") is my answer, though written in good fun. Even if you disagree, repeat step (b) 🤣

(As you can maybe tell, it's not something I care much about, even if maybe the album is really 49% qualified instead of 51%. Although it has 60s psychedelic/art pop all over it, I am already aware it's a borderline selection because of its other confluences: such as the aforementioned indie folk ... particularly linking to Dylan's early period such as It's All Over Now Baby Blue and the stream of consciousness of songs like Mr Tambourine Man being perhaps the most direct parallels)

Re: what is pop

baystateoftheart — Fri, 24 May 2019 21:03:53 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 05/25/2019 01:03

AfterHours wrote:

Re: what is pop

AfterHours — Fri, 24 May 2019 20:49:57 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/25/2019 00:49

gidgidi wrote:

ok sorry but wait what lol since when is neutral milk hotel pop

what is pop

gidgidi — Fri, 24 May 2019 17:25:49 GMT

Author: gidgidi

Posted: 05/24/2019 21:25

ok sorry but wait what lol since when is neutral milk hotel pop

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Sat, 11 May 2019 12:50:51 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/11/2019 16:50

Facetious wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

I'm not totally sure but I've heard most or maybe all of them at one time or another. In the late 90s/early 2000s I got pretty into them for a bit.

I recently revisited Soft Bulletin a couple weeks ago because I thought it could make the leap from my current 6.5-rating. Also, thought it might be good timing while I was extra enamored with Pet Sounds, Gershwin and Mozart. But I would probably lean more to a 6 instead after that, though Ill give it 1 or 2 additional tries before deciding. Basically, it is a good album, but I found it much too reliant on its (great) production quality than its actual content. Though pretty colorful, its kind of clumsy at times and not particularly great at psychedelia (ex: compare to the otherwordly Deserter's Songs ... and XTCs Skylarking which seems like a key touchstone for SB). The vocals would probably be fine in a more psychedelic work (such as their earlier stuff) but are usually too naive, limited and underwhelming for the songs that are closer to straight melodic pop (they mitigate moments that would be more beautiful or compelling or potent otherwise). There is clearly an end-of the millenium existential vibe here (from the confused mind or stupor of someone on LSD) and the work seems to also come from a place of pending tragedy, passed through a naive and colorful visage (an escape from reality?) though Im not sure it really fulfills these. It might work as a concoction that includes parody somewhere between XTC (Skylarking), Beach Boys (Pet Sounds, Smile), early Disney, Opera buffa (Mozart, Gershwin) and 60s Zappa ... but Im not sure either if its truly effective wholly enough here. Maybe. Basically it's a naive album (from all angles: conceptually, expressively), which can be charming/endearing, and it has some great -- even striking -- moments (and a few touching ones), but too often lacks the expressive/compositional maturity, consistency and impact that the Pop 7s and above tend to have.

Anyway, as you can tell I am still uncertain of its merits. It has a shot...

I'll give you that Skylarking is clearly the superior album. As for the rest:
- Are you listening to The Soft Bulletin 5.1 (the remastered, definitive version with no remixes)?
- I'm not sure what you mean by relying too much on production quality. Many of the most expressive albums rely heavily on production. The effects on The Soft Bulletin are clearly not just tacked on but an essential part of its content.
- Which moments do you find clumsy?
- Comparing it to Deserter's Songs, I personally don't have a preference for either one. Deserter's Songs has a couple of useless instrumentals (I Collect Coins and The Happy End) that don't really add much to the content. The Soft Bulletin is better than Deserter's Songs when it comes to upbeat songs (compare the closer of DS to most of SB). Just because DS is more brooding and nocturnal, and SB is more openly commercial and optimistic/summery, doesn't mean the former has more depth. The vocal styles aren't very different on both either; Wayne Coyne's voice fits the wide-eyed childish vibe of the album. Personally, I think both are just about equally excellent. So many details in SB to pay attention to: Feeling Yourself Disintegrate, with the trick of using a "disintegrating" voice sample as percussion, the psychedelic reverb, the constantly shifting guitar lines, with melancholic "hooks" every now and then, and the way the track builds. That and the pathos of Waitin for a Superman can hold their own against the likes of Holes and Goddess on a Hiway. The bittersweet Eno imitation Sleeping on the Roof builds in the same way that Pick Up If You're There from SB does. The massive drums and soaring strings (?) on Race for the Prize and the thick, joyful bass on Spoonful and Buggin (the bass drop on Spoonful is particularly notable for how it breaks up the opening Disney-ballad section, but ends up elevating the song instead of breaking the mood); certainly ideas you wouldn't find on DS. You yourself mentioned the contrast between the existential mood and the colourful visage it's filtered through. It's certainly worth a shot.

I'd also recommend Clouds Taste Metallic; the pathos and guitar noise of Mercury Rev's early albums passed through a naive and colourful visage yet again. It's a unique take on noise pop, somewhere between the structured, polished SB and Flaming Lips' amateur noise pop. Some of the notable tracks are The Abandoned Hospital Ship (an epic ballad with a touching, distorted guitar solo), the crazed energetic noise pop (think a more polished Syringe Mouth/Bronx Cheer) of Psychiatric Explorations of the Fetus with Needles and Kim's Watermelon Gun, the sludge of Lightning Strikes the Postman, and the contrasting duo of Evil Will Prevail and Bad Days (both crescendoing, but with wildly different mantras; the latter is sort of a lively lullaby, a comforting antidote to the pessimistic but musically upbeat Evil Will Prevail). As with SB, it's more affecting if you accept the naivety. (Priest Driven Ambulance and Hit to Death are not pop enough for the list but they're great albums and probably the closest to Mercury Rev in sound.)

I havent revisited SB to point out more exact specifics but here are some more general points that might be enough for you to see what I mean ... for starters:

Re: Relying on production quality ... The work is replete with moments where great affectation is given to a moment of loudness or spectacle that is technically impressive and a cool effect on its own, but more or less "unearned". In various cases, the emotional momentum/development preceding these climactic moments has not built the foundation of tension or emotional progress in order for the release/climax to have resolved this, expound or further develop it in a particularly meaningful or substantial way, or to become truly "climactic", or is somewhat incongruous to what precedes it.

Re: clumsy ... the combo of this instrumental tendency with the mediocre vocalist (who is only mildly affecting on his own and lacks a compelling harmonic integration to the music that might make up for this) marks the album with a consistent emotional "awkwardness". This can perhaps be justified by claiming "it's that way because it's psychedelic" but the album isnt particularly strong in this regard. Deserter's Songs' sound world has a far better coalescence of elements, with (for the most part) each moment extending and developing from the last emotionally/compositionally (where Coyne's similar vocals would probably work too) into a highly immersive and involving experience ... Another possible justification is that it is a series of mini collages (which I would probably agree with), but these aren't particularly impressive compared to Rock's lyrical or satirical zeniths such as Faust/Zappa/Vampire Rodents or... Another possible justification is "it's Dadaist", which might have some merit, but (again): Faust, Zappa, Floyd's Piper, Wyatt, etc. Or, a bit more pop oriented: Cope's World Shut Your Mouth, Eno (Tiger Mtn), and so on... SB lacks the integration and momentous development of a seasoned composer (the coalescence of elements, rhythm, etc, thoroughly aligned in purpose and effect). Bellybutton, a much superior work to SB, is a superb example where the integration of disparate elements/quotations/sub-genres is so flawless as to be completely missed by the listener if not observed and followed closely. Like Skylarking, this clockwork, medley-like (within the songs) integration is remarkable by comparison and has probably about double the cumulative impact.

Again, not necessarily my complete answer unless you find yourself seeing what I mean after this... If not Ill revisit at some point, note specifics and relay them (I'm willing to if needed but not super jazzed to spend an hour or so revisiting it + notes, while in the middle of revisiting Rock, Jazz and Classical masterworks <-- not meant as a personal annoyance towards you or your questions or request 😁 )

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Fri, 10 May 2019 12:06:39 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/10/2019 16:06

@ Facetious

Though any retort/reply is generally fine (from whoever), I especially like that you are retorting with points to be taken up and given consideration. I will try and take those up as soon as I can but will probably need to revisit SB or some of it to point out specifics relating to individual songs or parts of songs.

Re: Best Pop Albums

Facetious — Fri, 10 May 2019 05:35:25 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 05/10/2019 09:35

AfterHours wrote:

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Wed, 8 May 2019 18:31:14 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 05/08/2019 22:31

Facetious wrote:

What have you 2listened to from the Flaming Lips' 90s work? Transmissions from the Satellite Heart, Clouds Taste Metallic, and The Soft Bulletin are good candidates for this list (Hit to Death in the Future Head is also great but I'm not sure if it's melodic enough to qualify; their remaining 90s albums are excellent but definitely don't qualify).

Re: Best Pop Albums

Facetious — Wed, 8 May 2019 14:42:59 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 05/08/2019 18:42

What have you listened to from the Flaming Lips' 90s work? Transmissions from the Satellite Heart, Clouds Taste Metallic, and The Soft Bulletin are good candidates for this list (Hit to Death in the Future Head is also great but I'm not sure if it's melodic enough to qualify; their remaining 90s albums are excellent but definitely don't qualify).

Re: Best Pop Albums

baystateoftheart — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 17:29:51 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 04/17/2019 21:29

AfterHours wrote:

Poptimists can rejoice! The "impossible" has happened!? 🤣

No, not Tiger Woods winning the Masters...

The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds climbed over the ramparts, charged the King and broke through onto my "Greatest Albums of All Time" list (7.3+).

�'�

🥳

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 17:12:57 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/17/2019 21:12

Poptimists can rejoice! The "impossible" has happened!? 🤣

No, not Tiger Woods winning the Masters...

The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds climbed over the ramparts, charged the King and broke through onto my "Greatest Albums of All Time" list (7.3+).

�'�

DelBocaVista and I were discussing the album a little (by PM) a couple days ago and I (briefly) explained my thoughts on the matter as follows (below, with some edits). Note that this is not intended as anything more than a somewhat haphazard "review", just some pointers, not to be confused with a more considered review/analysis, which I'll probably do sooner or later:

"My recent revisits of Mozart and Gershwin enhanced my appreciation of its particular orchestration (enchanted/enraptured/near-surreal), its particular tonalities and harmonic brilliance and overall sound world which is full of wonder -- highly colorful and enlivened but also seen or imagined through the visage of translucent, aching, dreary but poetically beautiful, melancholy and tears ... its particular, graceful, "dexterous" sense of rhythm and blend of semi-ambiguous/multi-faceted emotions conveyed (almost always a deft melancholy while maintaining a sense of liveliness/cheerfulness/vividness ... its timbre/tonality and melodies are basically a FUSING of this so that its gestures, choruses, expressions seem to mean one always comes with the other...). Any schmaltz is probably overcome by how fulfilling its sound world, its purity and innocence, its melodies and orchestrations are, how much consideration has been given to the exact elocution of the vocals/gestures (which are essentially an "orchestral" section unto themselves ... immersed in a highly considered and graceful melancholy, but never sloppy -- always maintaining its composure, its posture, its elegance, as if each line is being delivered by a great orator ... very Mozart) and the thoughtfulness behind its rather mature sense of melody, exotic instrumentation and rhythm -- all as if the emotional spontaneity and graceful wide-eyed gesture of a child, without psychological complication. Its sound is the sound of the happiness of youth meeting the melancholy of loss, heartbreak and adulthood for the first time."

Re: Best Pop Albums

AfterHours — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 18:17:50 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 02/23/2019 23:17

raadfactoryxny wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

raadfactoryxny wrote:

AfterHo urs wrote:

Go for it...

Not sure how much longer talking about Michael Jackson's "expressive impact, depth and profundity" can hold my interest though.

Barely holding on here... 🤣

Like any artist he is of course expressing "something" which I am not surprised if his hardcore fans find revolutionary/mind-blowing/powerful/profound, etc...

The short answer is that, no he doesnt deserve to be on this list except perhaps Thriller in the 7's (which I go back and forth on it being 6.5 or 7). And no, he is not the "King of Pop" (unless the criteria is sales). I would probably go with Todd Rundgren ...and/or XTC/Alan Partridge, or possibly Neutral Milk Hotel/Jeff Mangum (which would include his work with Olivia Tremor Control). These were artists that were far superior in terms of substance and at least as melodically gifted. And if we are primarily judging composition and catchy (but meaningful) melodic expression, regardless of genre, Mozart is the greatest of all time (probably by far). Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Schubert's 9th or Mozart's Don Giovanni (or Jupiter Symphony? Piano Conc #21?) perhaps the greatest examples in music history.

No worries at all.
There are many things I could've said, but in the end, we both are gonna stay with the same opinion as beforehand. Which is completely fine. And, it is your list, not mine - so I respect and accept that you don't include him here. And I definitely respect you for having ITAOTS as the best pop album 😮 😁 .
What I definitely liked about this little discussion was that my excitement for Curtis Mayfield albums increased, so thank you for that. Classical music is incomparable when it comes to melodiousness in general, so I'll give you a pass on that as well.
One more thing though, what songs by MJ do you 'like' the most? Just curious.

Ok cool - fair enough 😄

Yes ITAOTS is quite something. Several months ago, I wrote an "unofficial" review/analysis in reply to another user asking me about it that might interest you ... gives some insight into my thoughts about it ...among many misc descriptions of it I've given over the years about it. Here:

"Re: Aeroplane

The entire album is a never ending circle/spiral through time, from its merry-go-round and unified emotional arc, down to the cyclic structures of individual songs, even down to the circular chordal sequences. As a whole, it becomes akin to a single, elongated stream-of-consciousness that is constantly expanding or delving deeper into itself, a series of visions consistently on the verge of spinning out of control.

It is possibly the most haphazardly heart-on-sleeve album of all time, erupting in a whole new level of emotional honesty, conviction and abandon for songs realized primarily in strict pop formats. The singer, Jeff Mangum, is completely uninhibited and lost in the moment, and his backing band is extraordinarily evocative and nearly his equal in spontaneity. The album is performed as if it all just suddenly happened in a burst of miraculous inspiration. Lightning in a bottle that can never be repeated (not even by Mangum himself). Incredibly it doesn't come across as pretentious (which should be impossible considering its content and how it is expressed) because none of it sounds even remotely premeditated, but overwhelmingly inspired in the exact moment of elicitation. This is practically revolutionary for "pop music" which is generally highly contrived and the opposite of such an inspiration and epiphany of expression. It amounts to an anti-thesis or dichotomy upon the genre itself, an expressive force of nature its format is designed to inhibit, a paradigm shift for pop music and an emotional liberation and blueprint for artists ever since.

The album reinvigorates the young Bob Dylan in its folk, evangelical tones and streams-of-consciousness. It reinvigorates the wragged glory and moral odysseys of Neil Young. It reinvigorates the surreal Pop Art of Pearls Before Swine and The Beatles' Strawberry Fields Forever and Across the Universe. It reinvigorates the wild, circus atmospheres of Frank Zappa's masterpieces. It reinvigorates the awestruck, characterful vocal elocution and sonority of Stan Ridgway's most expressive works.

It synthesizes all of these, surpassing them into its own inimitable delirium, an incredible outpouring of courageous emotional honesty.

Emotionally the album constantly strikes a dilated paradox between overwhelming depression, sympathy, loss and nostalgia with an awestruck, child-like wonder or ecstacy. Virtually every phrase of voice and instrument holds this juxtaposition to bear in wide-eyed visions and lullabies. Due to this, the result is simultaneously devastating and life-affirming.

Ultimately its emotional expressions are a tremendous suffering of abandonment, as if in great sympathy and tenderness, from a longing, yearning and needy newborn or child to his dying mother. Its lullabies are the sound (literally, physically) of Mangum being cradled and rocking interminably and inconsolably in the devastation and disbelief at such irreversible loss. Ultimately, it is Mangum, through an astonishing and paralyzing emotional transference, physically and expressively becoming the Anne Frank of her diaries merged unto his own, eliciting a synthesis of his personality through hers in a collision of shock and despair, carrying her dead body against his in monumental scenes of burden and compassion."

___________________

You may want to avail yourself of my "Greatest Classical" and "Best Classical Recordings" lists (links beneath this post) if you haven't already.

MJ favorites might be Wanna Be Startin Something, Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal

That description/thought/analysis about Aeroplane is still jaw-dropping. One of the best to this albums, along with some RYM-favorites. Everytime I think, or played the album, the better it gets and the more layers I discover. Very few bodies of works does that.
My two favorite analysis' of yours are this and Rock Bottom. Thanks for that again, have a nice night.

You're welcome and thank you too 😄