Best Ever Albums

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 11:06:53 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 15:06

sethmadsen wrote:

:lol:

no worries. I was just curious. I'm not committed really to either side of the story/calling anyone out. I mean I think DAMN does have some great social commentary on race, religion/beliefs, and many other heavy hitting topics (it's not empty garbage), but to say it's the absolute best of 2017, have no clue, and as many have said his previous releases are better.

Musically I do find DAMN. his most cohesive record (something that for my taste is really important), but still agree with others that it is not his greatest work.

Makes sense man, thank you 😄

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

RoundTheBend — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 01:24:30 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 04/23/2018 05:24

AfterHours wrote:

The unintentional-roll-your-eyes-comedy in my dismissal of DAMN as the winner is that I dont have a replacement for it as I have barely listened to anything for the year 🤣 🙄 :lol:

🤣

no worries. I was just curious. I'm not committed really to either side of the story/calling anyone out. I mean I think DAMN does have some great social commentary on race, religion/beliefs, and many other heavy hitting topics (it's not empty garbage), but to say it's the absolute best of 2017, have no clue, and as many have said his previous releases are better.

Musically I do find DAMN. his most cohesive record (something that for my taste is really important), but still agree with others that it is not his greatest work.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 01:19:55 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 05:19

souplipton wrote:

Honestly, don't engage with him. He's clearly uninteresting in trying to listen to what you're saying and is, dare I say it, probably just trolling you. I think your assessment that it is "a complete waste of my fucking time" is about as spot on as any assessment you've done (and I know you have done some extremely thorough assessments).

Thank you for the acknowledgement, and agreed on your advice in a general sense (as necessary).

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 01:16:13 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 05:16

boyd94 wrote:

Tap wrote:

Like even here a statement like "But here it's largely in the lyrics, as per the nature of the genre" which isn't even coming from a place of dismissing the genre at all, I think misses out on the musicality of rap.

For sure, there are some examples of impressive musicality in the genre. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the music serves the words in hip-hop, indeed for all of Raekwon's lyrical talent and expression he is not the same without RZA, whose style is so distinctive and influential as to be a genre unto itself.

I'm finding it difficult to express what I mean here. Might come back to it later.

AfterHours wrote:

I will revisit DAMN just to be sure. Seeing as someone who understands my criteria/selections is recommending it fairly strongly. I have had many albums suddenly upgrade in rating upon a revisit, so I am far from a stranger to changing my mind.

If you're giving TPAB 7/10 I would honestly put DAMN at 6/10.

Re: TPAB @ 7/10 / DAMN @ 6/10 ... This is plausible. I revisited it last night and it may have some promise in it enough for 6/10 (my rating some weeks ago was 4/10). I'll say more about the work if I decide it's (more than marginally) better than I initially thought.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

souplipton — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 00:47:32 GMT

Author: souplipton

Posted: 04/23/2018 04:47

AfterHours wrote:

No -- providing you with insight is a complete waste of my fucking time, that's why I've "evaded" telling you about Mahler's 9th.

You're very covert/two-faced in (a) your pretense of wanting insights, then (b) the nullifaction and manipulative intent of your replies. Your attempts to twist knowledge/insight that I provide for you into some non-sequitur comprehension and lessen what I've said is fucking ridiculous. Don't ask me again, I'm not interested.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 23:44:47 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 03:44

sethmadsen wrote:

For all the haters, what should have won last year instead?

The unintentional-roll-your-eyes-comedy in my dismissal of DAMN as the winner is that I dont have a replacement for it as I have barely listened to anything for the year 🤣 🙄 🤣

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

Hayden — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 23:39:57 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 04/23/2018 03:39

sethmadsen wrote:

Hayden wrote:

Not that Lamar winning is a problem of mine, but it would've been cool to see Arca win. Least it would've fit the bill... ish...

EDIT: Nvm, not eligible. I pick Jlin's Black Origami.

Cool.

Also why is Arca not eligible?

Winners have to be American (or the work, no matter the field, has to be composed/made in America).

Like I said. It's limited.

No Pulitzer for you, Mozart.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 23:33:53 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 03:33

Fischman wrote:

This is somewhat reminiscent of the brouhaha surrounding Dylan having won a Nobel Prize for Literature, but with one key difference.

Like Lamar, many old heads and traditionalists scoffed at Dylan earning such an honor.

Like Lamar, Dylan's music is noting to get excited about. Dylan's fame rests on his words more so than the music to which it is set.

And therein lies the difference. Personally, I find Dylan unlistenable, but I understand the attention paid to his poetry. So him winning a Nobel specifically for Literature does seem within the realm of the reasonable.

However, the criteria for a Pulitzer in music is broader than the criteria for a Nobel in Literature. The Nobel focuses only on the language while the Pulitzer is for "distinguished musical composition," which implies the music is just as important as the words.

So when we start thinking about "distinguished musical composition," then Lamar's selection becomes even more suspect. He's no Dylan to begin with, but the music is hardly "distinguished composition." I'm with @AfterHours in thinking there's many (maybe not hundreds, but plenty) of jazz/classical (and I would add progressive rock) releases annually that far exceed Lamar in any given year in the arena of musical composition. Lamar may be taking hip-hop further than the very basic standards of the past, but for it to approach the technical accomplishments of the greats currently operating in these other genres, he's got a loooooong way to go.

Agreed with the gist of what you're saying of Lamar, though as youre probably aware, I am a big champion and fan of Dylan, one of my favorite artists. I think he is a great vocalist -- not technically/traditionally -- but in his raw/unfiltered emotional honesty. He had an incalculable effect upon the art of the vocalist in Rock music, in lessening the necessity to be technically proficient but instead "being" him/herself with much increased attention on what was emotionally true as an expression as opposed to ensuring the technique was in place ahead of this (more important) factor. He basically invented the Rock artist as independant -- therefore independant Rock music was borne. He was the first Rock artist to truly follow his own path and care nothing about the charts or what the public was clamoring for. As a composer he was quite substantial, in that he dilated and extended the format and intellectualized it, having an incalculable effect upon Experimental/Progressive/Art Rock and the entire future of the Rock musician as visionary artist.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:55:41 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/23/2018 02:55

YoungPunk wrote:

Anyhow I'm not really all that surprised you evaded Mahler's ninth, there's very little positive I can say about it, and I suspect that's true for most people, Beethoven's ninth is way better, but you wouldn't know what it was about if not for the words. Other than that you would need an outside (dare I say artificial) book written by some scholar that didn't write the music and usually has nothing to offer lol.

No -- providing you with insight is a complete waste of my fucking time, that's why I've "evaded" telling you about Mahler's 9th.

And no -- the insights I provided about Beethoven's 9th have nothing to do with the words. You have no clue what I'm talking about.

You're very covert/two-faced in (a) your pretense of wanting insights, then (b) the nullifaction and manipulative intent of your replies. Your attempts to twist knowledge/insight that I provide for you into some non-sequitur comprehension and lessen what I've said is fucking ridiculous. Don't ask me again, I'm not interested.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

YoungPunk — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:09:26 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 04/22/2018 21:09

AfterHours wrote:

To anyone interested (though a bit off topic from the OP) 🤣

There was a typo before with "swath" instead of "wrath" (in bold now). Might make a little difference in relaying what I meant but probably no big deal...

"I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent wrath/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this."

I guess its clear we could care less about Kendrick lol 😄

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

YoungPunk — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:08:28 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 04/22/2018 21:08

I guess I just don't see music's purpose as expression. I'm more interested in the math aspect, all the interesting patterns you hear, like I just took a credentialing math test to be a substitute teacher and I actually enjoyed how difficult it was! It was a pleasant surprise! Not really that relevant, but I think it explains my views, which are subjectively correct at the very least.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:06:34 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/22/2018 21:06

To anyone interested (though a bit off topic from the OP) 🤣

There was a typo before with "swath" instead of "wrath" (in bold now). Might make a little difference in relaying what I meant but probably no big deal...

"I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent wrath/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this."

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

YoungPunk — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:39:04 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 04/22/2018 19:39

Fischman wrote:

Even if I had no idea what the words were, I would still think it one of the greatest musical achievements of all time, based on the music alone. And even without knowing the words, I would still understand to be a great, heroic piece uplifting of the human spirit. The music conveys the message quite well even without the words.

As for being a great musical accomplishment, I am in agreement, In fact I think all of Beethoven's symphonies are wonderful based on the music alone. On the other hand, many others besides me are not uplifted by Beethoven's ninth, and are in fact bored. Those people would not get the message, and might be more uplifted by the music of Radiohead or the Beatles. Beethoven would have failed to communicate to those people based on the music alone.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:31:40 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/22/2018 19:31

Gowi wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

:-k

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

:lol:

yes

Agreed then 🤣

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

mickilennial — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:57:57 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 04/22/2018 18:57

YoungPunk wrote:

But why are you upgrading Mahler's ninth if Beethoven's ninth is your favorite? Shouldn't you be upgrading your favorite?

some people can gauge what their favorites are and what is better than their favorites based on their own criteria

i don't anymore but some do

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

Fischman — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:41:47 GMT

Author: Fischman

Posted: 04/22/2018 18:41

YoungPunk wrote:

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

YoungPunk — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:28:55 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 04/22/2018 18:28

Anyhow I'm not really all that surprised you evaded Mahler's ninth, there's very little positive I can say about it, and I suspect that's true for most people, Beethoven's ninth is way better, but you wouldn't know what it was about if not for the words. Other than that you would need an outside (dare I say artificial) book written by some scholar that didn't write the music and usually has nothing to offer lol.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

YoungPunk — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 14:15:20 GMT

Author: YoungPunk

Posted: 04/22/2018 18:15

But why are you upgrading Mahler's ninth if Beethoven's ninth is your favorite? Shouldn't you be upgrading your favorite?

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

AfterHours — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:38:53 GMT

Author: AfterHours

Posted: 04/22/2018 17:38

YoungPunk wrote:

AfterHours wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it -- I dont know what the fuss is about saying one is #3 and Wagner's top 2 are "only" #5-#10 or something in the entire history of art. Perhaps the only way to briefly "explain" the qualitative difference between a 9.7-9.8 like Mahler's 9th and a 9.5-9.6-9.7 (or so) like The Ring/Tristan & Isolde would be to listen to each several times and pay close attention to each in relation to my criteria.

If I post a write up/review/essay of Mahler's (or Beethoven's) 9th it would have to be given the proper time such as my Citizen Kane analysis or, to a lesser extent, my Nostalghia analysis (see Movies and TV section for either) ... or even a sample/teaser version to even grasp a hint of it would have to be on the order of my brief dive into a Sistine Chapel analysis (see the conversation with sethmadsen on My Criteria page) or something on the order of my Mona Lisa analysis (see "Greatest Paintings" list -- scroll down to "Images" section).

But really man, I am very busy and rarely have the time to provide in depth analyses, especially for something as herculean a task as those at/near the top of my lists, and especially "on demand".

I will say this teaser though: every musical phrase of Beethoven's 9th is (1) relaying multiple emotional/conceptual statements simultaneously yet fully developed in and of itself (each is way more ambiguous and layered than is obvious; for instance, the heroic progression in developments of the first movement's 2nd and mid sections are not just heroically progressing in increased pace and suspense, but are fused by both downcast tones, angry/violent swaths/outcry, and a lonely, weeping funeral at its heart inside the main orchestral frame ... the whole symphony is never what it only seems on the surface, but an "endless" shift, metamorphosis, desperation, culmination and salvage of being); (2) every musical phrase is a prismatic (inverted, transposed, close variant) mirror of and to its other parts simultaneously in an impossible-to-believe infinity and cohesion of emotion and concept (if, in considering this work, you think there is no way with such seemingly incongruous parts, sudden developmental changes/leaps, differing movements and expansion of musical territory, that this could've been accomplished by anyone, let alone a deaf person who hadn't heard music for years, then you are right -- it was impossible). As an example the capping, lunging, upward, tense thrust of vocals and orchestra that ends the symphony is not just a fitting climactic ascension but, instrumentally and vocally, actually fuses all the symphony's movements into one build up then swift, momentous, fell swoop, shockingly culminating all in the most economical and violently joyful way possible. The whole symphony has been growing up to this, in an incredible network of compositional correlation. The whole symphony is built on its parts, and each of its parts are the whole symphony. The actual musical experience of this and its cognitive realization is too incredible for words, an unrelenting compositional and expressive epiphany. It is overwhelmingly miraculous. I (no joke) nearly choked up in thinking about it while writing this.

I presume you mean Mahler's Ninth? This is what I was looking for. Thanks. I guess maybe what you are saying is true but it just doesn't do that for me subjectively. Maybe other of Mahler's symphonies sure, but this one I understand is mainly celebrated for being a very "modern" symphony, not on its substance, which is not good for me. Then again maybe you're really talking about Beethoven's ninth then it makes more sense, but I think you're talking about Mahler's ninth. I guess I'm just not a "symphony" person.

Nope, Beethoven's 9th, as per your original (and ignorant) comment. Anyways, suit yourself man, I wont be wasting your time any further on this.

Re: Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer Prize in Music for DAMN.

mickilennial — Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:11:06 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 04/22/2018 16:11

AfterHours wrote:

:-k

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

:lol:

yes