Best Ever Albums

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

albummaster — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:46:19 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/23/2019 16:46

baystateoftheart wrote:

I've used and enjoyed this customization before. Just thought it would be cool to have more options :)

I'll check into adding more options to that feature...

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

baystateoftheart — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:35:17 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 03/23/2019 16:35

albummaster wrote:

The random album feature can be customised to restrict random albums to the top 1,000 10,000 etc in the overall chart (the threshold can be adjusted using the 'Set limit for random albums' setting on the profile page).

I've used and enjoyed this customization before. Just thought it would be cool to have more options 😄

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

albummaster — Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:57:24 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/23/2019 15:57

baystateoftheart wrote:

As far as I understand, there are already hard limits on how many albums users can view in a chart. So adding unranked albums to the end would only affect a bunch of year charts, plus decade charts for the 40s and before. Is this correct? It may not give many albums more visibility, but it's better than nothing. Another idea to give more visibility could be a more customizable random album feature. In other words, a setting to only display albums above/below __ points/charts/votes/rating/ranking etc.

That's right for year/decade charts. Obviously there were less albums released prior to 1960, so there's more room in those charts. However, do recognise the need for other tools to help browse the long tail of unranked albums. The random album feature can be customised to restrict random albums to the top 1,000 10,000 etc in the overall chart (the threshold can be adjusted using the 'Set limit for random albums' setting on the profile page).

dihansse wrote:

there are some charts here that haven't been updated in ages and maybe of former members who have simply left the site: why still include these or give some kind of higher weight to charts which are updated regularly but I think this has been debated lots of times already as well

This idea is currently on the 'to do' list and will be implemented, probably at the start of the next calendar year so there's a clean cut-off for comparing against previous years (there will be an impact when comparing against historical information as the data will be using the old formula).

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

RoundTheBend — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:11:37 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/22/2019 21:11

Yeah having a hard time valuing a ranking of something that two people have even acknowledged.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

dihansse — Fri, 22 Mar 2019 15:58:42 GMT

Author: dihansse

Posted: 03/22/2019 19:58

I'm completely with albummaster and Romanelli on this: I've been thinking a lot as well why this site is based on personal charts but I do think this is the final way in which someone acknowledges that that album is important to them. There's only two things:
- maybe it should be made clear to the new but also to older members that this is the system: I indeed see lots of even older members who give high scores and comments to some of their favorite albums but don't include them in their year or decade charts.
- there are some charts here that haven't been updated in ages and maybe of former members who have simply left the site: why still include these or give some kind of higher weight to charts which are updated regularly but I think this has been debated lots of times already as well

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

baystateoftheart — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:34:55 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 03/19/2019 23:34

albummaster wrote:

The sequence of the aggregate charts is (currently) solely based on rank points. More than often, there are fractions of points that are not displayed on screen - if this is the case, the albums will have a distinct rank but the points displayed on screen will look the same. If there's an exact tie on the number of points, the albums are ranked equally (sharing the same rank is valid if they are tied on points).

I pretty much agree with Romanelli about why unranked albums shouldn't be tagged on the end of the aggregate charts (especially the overall chart). A lot of unranked albums are here because people create charts just to add albums to the database, then they delete the chart, and add another one to do the same. In the past, I've had thoughts about combining the ranking with the rating to come up with some 'super-algorithm' to incorporate both rankings and ratings into the charts but never came up with anything satisfactory. The problem remains how to surface unranked albums if they aren't in the aggregate charts and this is definitely an issue that requires consideration but not sure it should be solved by loading the overall chart (which is meant to be a limited list of the best albums).

Good to know about fractional points, thanks. I do still think it would be cool to have average rating as a simple tiebreaker, with no super-algorithm involved.

As far as I understand, there are already hard limits on how many albums users can view in a chart. So adding unranked albums to the end would only affect a bunch of year charts, plus decade charts for the 40s and before. Is this correct? It may not give many albums more visibility, but it's better than nothing. Another idea to give more visibility could be a more customizable random album feature. In other words, a setting to only display albums above/below __ points/charts/votes/rating/ranking etc.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

albummaster — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 05:23:47 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/19/2019 09:23

The sequence of the aggregate charts is (currently) solely based on rank points. More than often, there are fractions of points that are not displayed on screen - if this is the case, the albums will have a distinct rank but the points displayed on screen will look the same. If there's an exact tie on the number of points, the albums are ranked equally (sharing the same rank is valid if they are tied on points).

I pretty much agree with Romanelli about why unranked albums shouldn't be tagged on the end of the aggregate charts (especially the overall chart). A lot of unranked albums are here because people create charts just to add albums to the database, then they delete the chart, and add another one to do the same. In the past, I've had thoughts about combining the ranking with the rating to come up with some 'super-algorithm' to incorporate both rankings and ratings into the charts but never came up with anything satisfactory. The problem remains how to surface unranked albums if they aren't in the aggregate charts and this is definitely an issue that requires consideration but not sure it should be solved by loading the overall chart (which is meant to be a limited list of the best albums).

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

baystateoftheart — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 18:41:18 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 03/18/2019 22:41

How about re-framing this idea as making average rating a tiebreaker after points? Doing so would expand the charts like Nick wants, yes. But more important, it would put the albums that are already in the charts in a more logical order. There are a great many albums that are tied in points, and when there is such a tie, albums with lower ratings are often above those with higher ratings. Is this based on fractional points that aren't visible to users, or done randomly? Because it's not alphabetical, based on average rating, or based on number of charts.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

Romanelli — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 17:22:24 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 03/18/2019 21:22

babyBlueSedan wrote:

I mostly agree that if a user likes an album they will put it on a chart, but keep in mind that new users can't create decade or year charts. It doesn't seem out of the ordinary that a new user has more than 100 albums they like, so until they level up there could be albums that don't fit into any of their charts. This could be a way to get those albums on a list until the time that user can add the albums to a decade or year chart.

Thus...the incentive to level up. The more involved a user is, the more charts they can make that effect the overall.

Quote:

This seems like a week argument because users can already add albums they haven't heard to a chart, which not only promotes the album more but gives it more points. So I don't see how this would make the system any more exploitable.

If you have an album that is not on a chart, and has not been rated, why not rate it simply so that you can see it on an overall chart?

Quote:

This doesn't seem like it would even be that noticeable. The overall chart is already capped at 10000 entries, all of which are in a chart. This would only affect albums that have a score of 0, so only the very ends of year charts, and some decade charts, would change. Personally I would never scroll that far to find albums but maybe some users would.

Then why would we need to take valuable site space to add something that would be that far down the scale of visibility? Don't we have better things to be advocating for?

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

babyBlueSedan — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 17:01:27 GMT

Author: babyBlueSedan

Posted: 03/18/2019 21:01

I mostly agree that if a user likes an album they will put it on a chart, but keep in mind that new users can't create decade or year charts. It doesn't seem out of the ordinary that a new user has more than 100 albums they like, so until they level up there could be albums that don't fit into any of their charts. This could be a way to get those albums on a list until the time that user can add the albums to a decade or year chart.

This doesn't seem like it would even be that noticeable. The overall chart is already capped at 10000 entries, all of which are in a chart. This would only affect albums that have a score of 0, so only the very ends of year charts, and some decade charts, would change. Personally I would never scroll that far to find albums but maybe some users would.

Romanelli wrote:

How many albums have ratings that are simply drive by's? People who have run through a gang of albums and just rated them for points accumulation? How many albums have ratings without having even been heard? And if this were to happen...how many non rated albums would then be given drive-by ratings just so that they would show up on the overall chart.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

Romanelli — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 16:20:09 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 03/18/2019 20:20

My take:

If an album is not on any charts on the site, and the overall site charts are based on the accumulation of all the smaller charts on the site, then why would an album that is not on any chart (overall, decade or year) belong on any of those overall charts?

How many albums have ratings that are simply drive by's? People who have run through a gang of albums and just rated them for points accumulation? How many albums have ratings without having even been heard? And if this were to happen...how many non rated albums would then be given drive-by ratings just so that they would show up on the overall chart?

The purpose of the site is not to give us sortable lists of every album in the world. The purpose of the site is to help determine, via charts, what are the best ever albums. What you are talking about here is taking albums that, out of the thousands of users charts (overall, decade and years), and the imported charts from outside of BEA, are not on any charts and tacking them onto the end of the overall charts so that you can see their ratings.

If you want an album included in the overall charts, then put it on one of your charts. Otherwise...it really doesn't belong there. My objection is to including albums that thousands of users have chosen NOT to include on their own charts on the overall site charts. They do not belong there. And realistically...the vote is unanimous that they don't.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

baystateoftheart — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 14:52:36 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 03/18/2019 18:52

So what is the problem with this idea, if any? Does it create meaningful logistical challenges? Just want to make sure the opposition is not coming from reflexive resistance to change.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

Romanelli — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 14:42:08 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 03/18/2019 18:42

I shudder to think of what the number of albums on this site would be that are not on any charts...it's gonna be a huge number.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

baystateoftheart — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 14:25:42 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 03/18/2019 18:25

Seth and StreetSpirit, he's asking for albums that aren't in the charts but have received votes to be added to the end of the charts. In other words, using average rating as a tie-breaker after points. I agree with Nick and Hayden that's it's a good idea.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

CA Dreamin — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 12:27:08 GMT

Author: CA Dreamin

Posted: 03/18/2019 16:27

NickVolos wrote:

Hello,

There are a number of albums that do not appear of the overall yearly site charts because they are not in any user's chart. For example: Love Is Alive And Well by Kim Fowley. Al lot of these albums do have user ratings. Is it possible to include them to the overall year charts? Maybe the album ratings could influence the ranking algorithm so they can be included.

Thanks!

You answered your own question. If an album isn't on any user chart, then it has 0 points. Thus it can't be on an overall chart. If you want Love is Alive and Well to appear on the overall Best Albums of 1967, then add it to your personal Best of 1967 chart.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

Hayden — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 11:54:48 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 03/18/2019 15:54

I'd be for it. Unsorted null non-charted albums appearing below the 0-points 1 chart rank would be fine. There's tonnes. If you go to the decade-sort feature we have the total number of albums in those years/decades logged, but it only shows those personally charted on the actual charts.

Always up for seeing more music on our charts.

Re: Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

RoundTheBend — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 23:05:50 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 03/18/2019 03:05

NickVolos wrote:

Here are the top rated albums of this site (as opposed to top ranked). Perhaps you can find it here?

https://www.besteveralbums.com/topratedstats.php?o=album

Not ranked albums don't appear of the overal year charts

NickVolos — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 18:28:59 GMT

Author: NickVolos

Posted: 03/17/2019 22:28

Hello,

There are a number of albums that do not appear of the overall yearly site charts because they are not in any user's chart. For example: Love Is Alive And Well by Kim Fowley. Al lot of these albums do have user ratings. Is it possible to include them to the overall year charts? Maybe the album ratings could influence the ranking algorithm so they can be included.

Thanks!