Best Ever Albums

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

Hayden — Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:53:38 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 06/20/2020 15:53

Gowi wrote:

streaming isn't killing the album format, its strengthening it

I'm very thankful to say I agree. I think the album format has been far stronger the past 3-4 years than it was during the 00s. I'm not hearing a lot of 'albums are dead' anymore, and people seem to be excited for full-length releases.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

albummaster — Sat, 20 Jun 2020 03:55:00 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 06/20/2020 07:55

Gowi wrote:

streaming isn't killing the album format, its strengthening it

Agree, and it's blurring the boundaries. On this thread, we can see the discussion of how the format has changed over the years, greatly influenced by the available technology at the time. BEA's task is to always try and accommodate wider changes to the album format, which I think is also relevant to these 1940s (& earlier) albums.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

PurpleHazel — Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:31:11 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/19/2020 13:31

StefanR10 wrote:

i can say that in this time was not so big with music I think The Beatles changed a lot of the making of albums and before them there were only a few artists who make such great albums with amazing covers.

It's true that before the Beatles, the record companies usually made the decisions about the artwork/packaging.

I know Ornette Coleman chose the Jackson Pollack painting on the cover and inside the gatefold of this 1961 album:

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Free Jazz by Ornette Coleman Double Quartet

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

PurpleHazel — Fri, 19 Jun 2020 07:37:03 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/19/2020 11:37

Jameth wrote:

The term “album” as it’s applied to 10 and 12 inch LPs and CDs is really just a holdover from the 78 era. I don’t look at those 78 rpm albums as compilations anymore than I do a lot of LPs from the 50s and 60s, which were just tracks assembled (compiled) from various sessions spread across months or years. They’re albums, even if they weren’t the result of a focused studio project.

The distinction is pretty arbitrary, anyway. Mississippi John Hurt recorded at least 19 sides for OKeh in 1928. But, since no one at OKeh saw fit to gather up his 78s shortly after they were recorded and bind them together as a collection to be sold at one price, any comprehensive release of those recordings is now considered to be a compilation.

Maybe there’s some debate to be had about the value of a release’s perceived format versus the value of a given recording session, I don’t know. I’m just glad BEA doesn’t govern compilations as separate but unequal, like RYM does.

When the word "album" is used in a non-generic way since the 60s, it usually means album as an art form, something more than just a collection of songs. Obviously this meaning stems from Sgt. Pepper, Pet Sounds etc. and has been in decline since the rise of mp3 and streaming (though the popularity of vinyl suggests a smaller counter-trend). When this site included the word "album" in its name, it was to distinguish itself from other music sites by embracing the concept of the album as an art form unto itself.

That being said, I agree with a lot of what you said. That use of the word "album" is often a subjective mental construct. Some albums are conceived to be an organic whole, some aren't. Some aren't but are perceived to be, some make a perfunctory pass at trying to be and might not be perceived as such.

I was mainly pointing out that 78s that aren't multiple-record sets and some 10-inch LPs are too short to be considered albums by the rules of this site, but I wasn't necessarily saying they weren't albums by every standard.

Even after James Brown's Live at the Apollo Vol. 1, What's Going on and Stevie Wonder's 70s albums, many R&B albums from the 60s onward were still following the singles plus filler formula, even if occasionally the filler was good enough to make those records good or even great albums, so judging them by the more rockist standards does often disadvantage R&B.

I'm glad that compilations aren't treated differently too. I'm even more glad that live albums aren't treated differently. Treating them differently discriminates against jazz. There are free jazz artists whose most famous or most highly acclaimed albums are live.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

mickilennial — Fri, 19 Jun 2020 01:56:24 GMT

Author: mickilennial

Posted: 06/19/2020 05:56

streaming isn't killing the album format, its strengthening it

vinyl reissues are making buckets, etc.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

StefanR10 — Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:42:08 GMT

Author: StefanR10

Posted: 06/18/2020 17:42

The album era was found in the 50s and now we see the dead of the album era. It is bad that no one day wanna buy a album on CD or Vinyl. 🙁 The great package you get i amazing. That is for me a standout for music. So i like the old albums were the creative aspect was enormous. For the 40s i can say that in this time was not so big with music I think The Beatles changed a lot of the making of albums and before them there were only a few artists who make such great albums with amazing covers.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

Jameth — Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:55:01 GMT

Author: Jameth

Posted: 06/16/2020 19:55

The term “album” as it’s applied to 10 and 12 inch LPs and CDs is really just a holdover from the 78 era. I don’t look at those 78 rpm albums as compilations anymore than I do a lot of LPs from the 50s and 60s, which were just tracks assembled (compiled) from various sessions spread across months or years. They’re albums, even if they weren’t the result of a focused studio project.

The distinction is pretty arbitrary, anyway. Mississippi John Hurt recorded at least 19 sides for OKeh in 1928. But, since no one at OKeh saw fit to gather up his 78s shortly after they were recorded and bind them together as a collection to be sold at one price, any comprehensive release of those recordings is now considered to be a compilation.

Maybe there’s some debate to be had about the value of a release’s perceived format versus the value of a given recording session, I don’t know. I’m just glad BEA doesn’t govern compilations as separate but unequal, like RYM does.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

RoundTheBend — Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:09 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 06/16/2020 18:22

PurpleHazel wrote:

RoundTheBend wrote:

In some ways the word album makes a lot of sense to these pre-LP "albums" because they physically were an "album" of 78s. I lucked out and was able to find Glenn Miller's famous "comp" (which back then I don't know what it was called... on the cover it's called an album). Anyway, back to the concept of album - it's like an old fashioned photo album these albums, with multiple pages of 78s often. It's a really fun find.

I'm actually glad we are including these as such because in the end it's more about music. But I have always respected the limitations of this site. It's like that film, the 5 obstructions - sometimes it's the limitations of art that are more powerful than the ability to portray everything perfectly - uncanny valley and all.

Hey, I'm a jazz fan. Practically every innovation in jazz other than free jazz, modal jazz and electric jazz occurred before 1950. All the best Charlie Parker records were originally 10" (not counting live albums and bootlegs). If one 10-inch record is allowed, all 10" and 78s should be allowed. But there's a reason why pre-1955 records are sorely unrepresented and I was explaining why. Some people don't put comps in their charts because they don't consider them albums (I have a few in my overall chart). But practically all pre-1954 non-classical and non-musical soundtrack albums are either under 31 minutes or comps (the latter at least on a technicality). Also, on a site that has "album" in the name, I think the history of records in the first half of the 20th century isn't as well-known as it probably should be (actually there's not a huge amount of information on 78s and 10"s on the internet overall).

In the end it should absolutely be about the music. Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, Count Basie and early Billie Holiday are criminally underappreciated on BEA, the biggest reason being that the majority of the records are pre-1950 (or maybe Scaruffi...).

Those 78" photo album-type album sets are really cool. Only seen them a couple of times.

Quote:

But I have always respected the limitations of this site. It's like that film, the 5 obstructions - sometimes it's the limitations of art that are more powerful than the ability to portray everything perfectly - uncanny valley and all.

This is an intriguing, expressive way of looking at it.

Yeah I was agreeing with - talking parallel to you (I thought at least 🤣 ). I'm sorry for not making that clear.

And yeah - I think Jazz and Classical really make great cases for early albums for sure. It's possibly a rumor, but I hear the reason for the LP's length was the wish to fit all of Beethoven's 9th on a single disc. I think it's a rumor because I heard the same logic was used for the CD too.

That was a thought I had - the slippery slope of the world once you realize it's not about 5th grade facts anymore. The LP was invented on this date, therefore the concept of album didn't exist before then. I don't know... the theory of New Historicism would totally argue against that logic and say it was a web of influences, including stuff like Glenn Miller's cover stating it is an album. They'd point to these pre-LP albums as albums and say the concept actually was a round 20 years before in various forms.

But yeah - one thing I've always respected about AlbumMaster was when classical music or singles or whatever was brought up, he held his guns on it being an albums site. And I love that about this site - even with the limitation (especially because of the limitation?).

But I'm in no way saying his still not doing that with the inclusion of pre-1948 albums. I think it's great (as it seems we all agree in our [my... :lol:] peculiar way). An LP does not equate to an album (in my opinion at least).

Funny thing - Kid A was released on 10", but has the grooves of a regular LP... they just wanted it to be different I guess (still 33 1/3, instead of 78). If it's two discs now, is it a comp... haha - totally joking. That's one thing I dislike about these re-releases with 2 "LPs" actually being a single album. Something about fidelity above my pay grade.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

StefanR10 — Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:59:01 GMT

Author: StefanR10

Posted: 06/16/2020 16:59

I think that is a good idea to make 1940s decade chart, but the problem is that in the decade 30s and 40s are not so much albums. I look what is goin on. I know a few albums from 40s but thats all. Ok great idea.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

Hayden — Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:07:36 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 06/16/2020 15:07

Thanks to Olli/Am for dealing with that Charlie Parker album. I wanted to flag it but couldn't find proof of when it was released.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

PurpleHazel — Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:36:58 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/16/2020 05:36

RoundTheBend wrote:

Quote:

This is an intriguing, expressive way of looking at it.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

RoundTheBend — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:09:12 GMT

Author: RoundTheBend

Posted: 06/16/2020 03:09

PurpleHazel wrote:

BozoTyrannus wrote:

there's a substantial amount of albums from the 40s and even older in the database.

Heck, I'd be ok with the chart being "1940s and older" and then throwing in any older record I find that I enjoy (because, again, there's some quality 1930s albums out there and on the site's database)

Albums -- if you define an "album" as an original recording of 30 minutes or more in length -- were primarily only used for classical music and musical soundtracks till the mid 50s, so there were practically no popular music albums before 1954 by that definition. Practically all LPs of all genres of music other than classical and musical soundtracks from before 1954 are technically compilations, because 10" LPs and 78s couldn't contain more than 30 minutes of music. The 12" LP was first introduced in 1948. Before then, classical albums longer than 30 minutes were released as multiple 78 or 10" sets.

I'm not saying 1940s records shouldn't be allowed, but just want to make clear that practically all of them are technically compilations (not that they need to be labeled as such, but they're at the very least 10" records padded out with extra tracks) or less than ~30 minutes, and that's why BEA is biased (don't mean prejudiced, just weighted toward) toward post-1954 records.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

PurpleHazel — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:23:14 GMT

Author: PurpleHazel

Posted: 06/16/2020 02:23

BozoTyrannus wrote:

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

baystateoftheart — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:53:49 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 06/16/2020 01:53

This is great. Could you please add 1940s as an option to filter on this page?

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

baystateoftheart — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:43:36 GMT

Author: baystateoftheart

Posted: 06/16/2020 01:43

albummaster wrote:

BozoTyrannus wrote:

Hey, just wanted to say thanks for adding that feature. Before there were only 29 albums from the 1940s that had a rank score, and after just three days we already have 42 on the list now. I hope this well help more users find these albums more easily.

Again, thanks for taking the time to listen to our requests!

No problem, and thanks for putting across the argument for this so well. Hopefully, more albums will be added over the next few days/weeks (and the ones already on the site will gain more visibility once they start accumulating points via decade charts). EDIT: Just wondering whether to also enable 1930s charts but not sure if there's enough volume for people's lists to be varied.

For reference, the number of 30s albums on RYM (including compilations) is 145. The number of 30s albums on Discogs (including compilations) is 71.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

BozoTyrannus — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 21:15:33 GMT

Author: BozoTyrannus

Posted: 06/16/2020 01:15

albummaster wrote:

EDIT: Just wondering whether to also enable 1930s charts but not sure if there's enough volume for people's lists to be varied.

I'd definitely use a 30s chart, though it wouldn't be very large. But I for sure like allowing some 30s albums to get a rank score

But maybe not for a week or so. I want to focus on really developing my 40s chart properly.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

Hayden — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 16:49:48 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 06/15/2020 20:49

BozoTyrannus wrote:

there were only 29 albums from the 1940s that had a rank score, and after just three days we already have 42 on the list now. I hope this well help more users find these albums more easily.

It's at 144 now. Looks like it was a good call.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

albummaster — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:10:01 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 06/15/2020 16:10

BozoTyrannus wrote:

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

Hayden — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:12:14 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 06/15/2020 15:12

Well, I have to say our 40s chart got pretty interesting overnight. Plenty of recs. Hoping to piece together a top 10 sometime today.

Re: 1940s Decade Charts

BozoTyrannus — Mon, 15 Jun 2020 07:28:41 GMT

Author: BozoTyrannus

Posted: 06/15/2020 11:28

albummaster wrote:

It's not a big change for the site to enable 1940s decade charts, but it's a lot harder to allow '1940s and earlier' charts as the site is structured by year/decade and this would break how the site works. (Not sure how many 1910s/'20s/'30's albums that the site would be missing out on, but could equally add these decades as well if there are people that want them).

EDIT: Now enabled 1940s decade charts.