Best Ever Albums

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

LedZep — Sun, 11 Sep 2022 17:42:50 GMT

Author: LedZep

Posted: 09/11/2022 21:42

Quote:

Presumably you would have Led Zep 4 higher on RYM?(I would) Rumours at #24 on BEA is about right for me.

Not sure where I'd have Led Zep IV, but it did surprise me it's not in the top 20-ish. It usually is higher on lists like the RYM one. Same thing with Rumours, don't have anything against putting it at #24, yet it surprised me how popular it is. It makes sense with Dreams having a resurgence, but I usually think of Rumours (perhaps wrongly) as a borderline top 100 on lists like these. Not because of quality, more of a status thing. Also, this RYM vs BEA thing is fine margins, I totally understand people who think BEA's more classics based list is better.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Sep 2022 06:33:13 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/10/2022 10:33

Quote:

That might also explain why the forums are so civil these days (I've only been here a year, but having reviewed several older threads it's pretty clear they were less civil in the past). I'm totally theorizing now, but my guess is that members who stick around and become "regulars" either don't want to argue about album rankings, or they're among the few who over time have learned to express their distaste for things (such as albums) without offending other people. So in many ways that's good, but it probably also reinforces the "older-person skew" because older people are more likely to not care, and are also more likely to find online hostility distasteful, at least after the first few minutes or so.

Forgot this but an interesting point. There could well be a demographic difference between BEA and RYM, possibly due to the time investment required to create charts puts of younger fans.

Yeah, very civil around BEA these days. Even in the past few years it has calmed down. Seems to be evolving that way. I agree that people aren’t really interested in arguing about whichever album is better. Overall this is a good thing, even though sometimes a little spice in the mix is missing (for the sake of conversation). Thankfully, trolling is not generally rewarded in this community.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Sep 2022 03:13:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/10/2022 07:13

In the meantime, we are tied at 8-8. Fair result for me. Probably an honorary victory for RYM at this point since playing away from home. I’ll leave the poll open indefinitely.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Sat, 10 Sep 2022 03:00:58 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/10/2022 07:00

LedZep wrote:

RYM one is significantly more interesting. I don't really like the top 2 of that chart. Not that I have anything against OK Computer or TPAB, both are my faves, but their placement as the best 2 albums of all time is... not ideal in my mind. Of course, BEA also has OK Computer at number 1. Other than that, RYM has a much more diverse and fun (and plain better imo) top 100.

The second part of this is "how accurate are they". And my answer is that nothing is accurate when it comes to "best" albums. I guess BEA's system of ranking popularity over ratings better reflects the community's taste, but both of those sites are still small communities of dedicated music listeners. So, not sure if ranking popular stuff higher even matters.

Some interesting, cool or maybe perplexing (to me) placements.

BEA
In rainbows #7
The bends #22
Is this it #23
Rumours #24
The suburbs #44
Yankee hotel foxtrot #48
Weezer blue #75
A moon shaped pool #79
Magical mystery tour #85
Sound of silver #92
For emma forever ago #98
A night at the opera #100

RYM
TPAB #2
Loveless #6
In rainbows #10
Red #24
Long season #35
Vespertine #37
Otokotachi no wakare #43
Led zeppelin 4 #45
The glow pt. 2 #47
Endtroducing #52
The money store #56
Atrocity exhibition #58
Soundtracks for the blind #69
Fall's peel sessions #91
Igor #94
Deathcounsciousness #95
Symbolic #98

Looking at it now, there's far more negative (maybe more weird than negative really, I like most of those albums anyway) surprises on BEA's chart than the RYM one which is 50/50 on positive and negative surprises.

Yeah, half-way with you. RYM is the more diverse and interesting list (and the diversity thing is a big issue for BEA). But I still voted BEA as better 🤡 Could have been better the devil you know 🧱

Pretty much agree with all those odd placings - I guess the RYM ones surprised me a bit more than BEA.

Presumably you would have Led Zep 4 higher on RYM?(I would) Rumours at #24 on BEA is about right for me.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

LedZep — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 18:14:05 GMT

Author: LedZep

Posted: 09/08/2022 22:14

RYM one is significantly more interesting. I don't really like the top 2 of that chart. Not that I have anything against OK Computer or TPAB, both are my faves, but their placement as the best 2 albums of all time is... not ideal in my mind. Of course, BEA also has OK Computer at number 1. Other than that, RYM has a much more diverse and fun (and plain better imo) top 100.

The second part of this is "how accurate are they". And my answer is that nothing is accurate when it comes to "best" albums. I guess BEA's system of ranking popularity over ratings better reflects the community's taste, but both of those sites are still small communities of dedicated music listeners. So, not sure if ranking popular stuff higher even matters.

Some interesting, cool or maybe perplexing (to me) placements.

BEA
In rainbows #7
The bends #22
Is this it #23
Rumours #24
The suburbs #44
Yankee hotel foxtrot #48
Weezer blue #75
A moon shaped pool #79
Magical mystery tour #85
Sound of silver #92
For emma forever ago #98
A night at the opera #100

RYM
TPAB #2
Loveless #6
In rainbows #10
Red #24
Long season #35
Vespertine #37
Otokotachi no wakare #43
Led zeppelin 4 #45
The glow pt. 2 #47
Endtroducing #52
The money store #56
Atrocity exhibition #58
Soundtracks for the blind #69
Fall's peel sessions #91
Igor #94
Deathcounsciousness #95
Symbolic #98

Looking at it now, there's far more negative (maybe more weird than negative really, I like most of those albums anyway) surprises on BEA's chart than the RYM one which is 50/50 on positive and negative surprises.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Hayden — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 17:54:43 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 09/08/2022 21:54

Skinny wrote:

The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever.

I've never heard it. I remember searching for it a couple of years ago but came up empty (pre-streaming days). Looks like it's on Spotify now, so I don't quite have an excuse. I know it's nearly 100 tracks, but I can't think of any reason not to dive in. I love the Peel Sessions. I wish more made BEA's "album" threshold— I'd be great for them to be on here. Definitely a special part of music history.

Should be able to hit play this weekend. 😄

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 04:00:39 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/08/2022 08:00

hwcolum wrote:

MadhattanJack wrote:

The one that immediately comes to mind for me (at the moment, anyway) is the 100 gecs album, 1000 gecs. BEA has it ranked #27 for 2019, whereas RYM has it at #339, almost certainly due to "brigading" by people on RYM who had a bad reaction to the enthusiasm shown for it by 100 gecs fans on various websites. RYM also doesn't seem to have an overall ranking for it at all (and I wonder if maybe they blanked it, because too much of that stuff was going on). The "correct" ranking is probably somewhere in between, but I'd be more inclined towards the BEA ranking in a case like that, whether I actually liked the album or not.

RYM lists the overall rankings for albums in the top 10,000. If an album doesn't have an overall rank on its page, that means it isn't in the all-time top 10,000 at all. I believe the highest-ranked album on BEA that is not in the RYM 10K is American Idiot.

Thanks, I find that interesting too. American Idiot is like the inverse of The Fall’s Peel sessions in that respect. It definitely says something about the difference between these two websites.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

MadhattanJack — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 02:18:05 GMT

Author: MadhattanJack

Posted: 09/08/2022 06:18

Skinny wrote:

The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever.

Heck, even I'll admit it has a better version of "Hot Aftershave Bop" than the one on 458489 B-Sides.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 02:02:20 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/08/2022 06:02

Skinny wrote:

The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever.

Statistically speaking, every BEA user disagrees with this 🤣

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Skinny — Thu, 8 Sep 2022 01:49:01 GMT

Author: Skinny

Posted: 09/08/2022 05:49

The Fall’s Complete Peel Sessions is the kicker. That’s like the greatest shit ever.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

911Turbo — Wed, 7 Sep 2022 10:52:57 GMT

Author: 911Turbo

Posted: 09/07/2022 14:52

BEA is more appealing and more accurate.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

hwex9000 — Tue, 6 Sep 2022 10:17:31 GMT

Author: hwex9000

Posted: 09/06/2022 14:17

MadhattanJack wrote:

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Tue, 6 Sep 2022 09:17:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/06/2022 13:17

Interesting thoughts from you guys, thanks for posting.

I can see how some trigger happy ratings could skew the charts on RYM, but I'm wondering if the high number of ratings averages out some of this behaviour, at least towards the top end of the chart. In its favour, RYM has way more ratings than BEA has charts (due to the ease of rating) and that does give you a better sample size.

My biggest concern with RYM is the variability in the number of ratings for each album in the top 100, which tells it's own story...With the default settings the range of ratings across the top 100 is around 18,000-80,000, not bad except for the outlying Fall Peel Sessions album I keep mentioning, which has only around 800 ratings. It has about 1% of the number of ratings given to OK Computer. If you adjust the settings so boxsets are weighted like other albums (see definition of this before), the standing of this album at #32 looks a bit dubious. The same is pretty much true with the live albums and other box sets that enter the top 100 when these are weighted. They don't have the same number of ratings as the normal studio albums, but the weighting for some reason propels these albums up the charts. Presumably because weighting has a bigger effect on albums that only have a small number of ratings relative to albums given lots of ratings.

This leaves RYM with a tricky dilemma. Either deweight (or exclude) live albums and box sets (which is the default setting but is a bit silly because all the other albums are weighted ) or weight these albums and allow some albums with a relatively small number of ratings to rocket up the charts.

I prefer to look at the chart with all the albums weighted. At least then I know there is consistency across the albums, though I don't think the weighting system works well due to the effect I just described.

Confusing stuff 🤡

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

MadhattanJack — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 16:11:17 GMT

Author: MadhattanJack

Posted: 09/05/2022 20:11

kokkinos wrote:

Indeed, and there are probably lots of good examples of that (and of how "virality" can work both ways in general) if one knows where to look!

The one that immediately comes to mind for me (at the moment, anyway) is the 100 gecs album, 1000 gecs. BEA has it ranked #27 for 2019, whereas RYM has it at #339, almost certainly due to "brigading" by people on RYM who had a bad reaction to the enthusiasm shown for it by 100 gecs fans on various websites. RYM also doesn't seem to have an overall ranking for it at all (and I wonder if maybe they blanked it, because too much of that stuff was going on). The "correct" ranking is probably somewhere in between, but I'd be more inclined towards the BEA ranking in a case like that, whether I actually liked the album or not.

Personally I'm less concerned about this because most of the stuff I listen to is either too obscure to be subject to fanbase rivalries or too old for anyone to bother putting in all that much effort. But it could definitely be a problem for more recent stuff.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

kokkinos — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 15:06:25 GMT

Author: kokkinos

Posted: 09/05/2022 19:06

MadhattanJack wrote:

In terms of individual albums having wildly divergent rankings between the two sites, I suspect a lot of that is down to "virality," as well as the sheer determination of the band's fanbase. It's just easier to pump up an album's ranking on RYA due to the formula they use and the (much?) lower amount of effort required.

Expanding on that thought, RYM’s system could also be exploited in a more “sinful” way, considering that ratings work both ways. What I mean is that not only can a “trending” album climb the ranking ladder through the process you just described, its fanbase can try to further manipulate its overall ranking by giving abysmal ratings to “rival” albums, namely albums that compete for the same spots.
This doesn’t work in BEA’s case as the worst thing you can do to an album is ignore it and not include it in any of your charts.
And yes, I know this may seem far-fetched and I don’t think it actually happens -as I’ve already said, I prefer RYM’s chart by a considerable margin anyway– simply some food for thought.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 12:17:21 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/05/2022 16:17

Hayden wrote:

theblueboy wrote:

In the meantime I’m listening to Fishmans for the first time in my entire life. So this is better than Rumours and Purple Rain huh ??????

Sorry for triple posting. I’ll shut up for a bit now and “enjoy” some Fishmans :lol:

I'd love to see a Fishmans record in our top 100. I think 98.12.28 has the best chance, but I'd be cool with Long Season too. I don't think it's unlikely— both have skyrocketed on our charts the past few years. Considering 98.12.28 essential contains Long Season, I'd give it the odds.

I've never listened to Hammersmith Odeon, London 75... might have to put that in the queue. Don't think I've heard a live Springsteen record at all actually. Some interesting comparisons with the live albums too. Although we have a Neil Young record in our top 100, RYM has two different ones, both live performances (Live At Massey Hall would probably be my personal choice if I were to put one of his records in my top 100). Same gist applies to Nirvana and Springsteen. Coltrane, Dylan and Talking Heads also making the cut with some great concerts (and maybe King Crimson, haven't heard that one though).

Maybe BEA should do a live album binge.

I’ll eat humble pie on that Fishman’s live album - it’s really impressive by the end. Will keep in rotation.

Yeah, RYM goes in hard with some strong live albums. Not sure they are all top 100 worthy though. Particularly as it makes 3 King Crimson and 3 Talking Heads albums in RYM’s top 100, which is overkill for me. On the other hand, BEA doesn’t have any live albums in the top 100, which I don’t think is right either.

I do think there is a case for Dylan, Talking Heads and Nirvana having better live than studio albums- or at least live albums that are equal to their best studio efforts. Not sure about the others though as I don’t know those artists well enough.

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Hayden — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 09:58:35 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 09/05/2022 13:58

theblueboy wrote:

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 05:02:50 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/05/2022 09:02

Hayden wrote:

RYM's list included archive release, live albums and soundtracks. Figured it was fair. Ours includes all that anyway.

Oh, I get the difference now. I was looking at the standard RYM list with live albums, boxsets comps included but deweighted. Hence only Fishmans and The Fall’s Peel sessions made the top 100. These albums are even higher when weighted. The Fall at #32 (compared to over 23,000 on BEA 😲 )

I don’t understand what “deweighted” means though. This might be a downside to RYM: I don’t immediately understand what I am looking at (admittedly I have not looked for an explanation yet).

Edit: I looked up what weighted means in this context. It has nothing to do with the number of ratings but refers to the activity level of users making the ratings. I sort of get how the chart is calculated now but it throws up further questions…

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 02:42:06 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/05/2022 06:42

In the meantime I’m listening to Fishmans for the first time in my entire life. So this is better than Rumours and Purple Rain huh ??????

Sorry for triple posting. I’ll shut up for a bit now and “enjoy” some Fishmans 🤣

Re: Better overall 100: BEA vs RYM?

Anonymous — Mon, 5 Sep 2022 02:39:44 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 09/05/2022 06:39

Hayden wrote:

Aight, so I hastily typed this by hand instead of copy/paste, so there'll be typos. Sorry.

I’m not super fussed about the order— so, to me, here’s the difference between the two—

RYM has—
A Tribe Called Quest - Low End Theory
A Tribe Called Quest - Midnight Marauders
Aphex Twin - Selected Ambient Works 85-92
Bjork - Vespertine
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Black Sabbath - Master of Reality
Bob Dylan - Bringing It All Back Home
Bob Dylan - The Bootleg Series Vol. 4
Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band - Hammersmith Odeon, London 75
Can - Future Days
Cocteau Twins - Heaven or Las Vegas
Coltrane - The Olatunji Concert
DJ Shadow - Endtroducing
Danny Brown - Atrocity Exhibition
David Bowie - Blackstar
David Bowie - Station to Station
Death Grips - The Money Store
Dilla - Donuts
Elliott Smith - Either/Or
Fishmans - 98.12.28
Fishmans - Long Season
GZA - Liquid Swords
Godspeed You Black Emperor - F#A#
Kanye West - The College Dropout
King Crimson - Red
King Crimson - The Great Deceiver
Leonard Cohen - Songs of Leonard Cohen
MF DOOM - MM… Food
Metallica - Ride The Lightning
Microphones - The Glow Pt. 2
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Neil Young - Live At Massey Hall
Neil Young - Rust Never Sleeps
Nirvana - Unplugged
Outkast - Aquemini
Slowdive - Souvlaki
Swans - Soundtracks for The Blind
Swans - Swans Are Dead
Talk Talk - Laughing Stock
Talking Heads - Stop Making Sense
Talking Heads - The Name of This Band is Talking Heads
The Beach Boys - The Smile Sessions
The Fall - The Complete Peel Sessions
Wu-Tang Clan - Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers)

(this is give-or-take ~3 comp titles)

BEA has—
Arcade Fire - Funeral
Arcade Fire - The Suburbs
Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That’s What I’m Not
Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago
Bruce Springsteen - Born To Run
David Bowie - Hunky Dory
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
Interpol - Turn On The Bright Lights
Jeff Buckley - Grace
Joni Mitchell - Blue
LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver
Led Zeppelin - Houses of The Holy
Led Zeppelin - I
Led Zeppelin - II
Love - Forever Changes
Michael Jackson - Thriller
Neil Young - After The Gold Rush
Nirvana - In Utero
Nirvana - Nevermind
Oasis - What’s The Story Morning Glory?
Pearl Jam - Ten
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Pixies - Surfer Rosa
Prince - Purple Rain
Queen - A Night At The Opera
REM - Automatic For The People
Radiohead - A Moon Shaped Pool
Radiohead - The Bends
Rolling Stones - Exile On Main St
Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed
Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
Sigur Ros - Agaetis Byrjun
Sufjan Stevens - Carrie & Lowell
Tame Impala - Lonerism
The Clash - London Calling
The Smashing Pumpkins - Mellon Collie And The Infinite Sadness
The Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
The Stone Roses - The Stone Roses
The Strokes - Is This It
The Who - Who’s Next
U2 - The Joshua Tree
Van Morrison - Astral Weeks
Weezer - Blue
Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
Zombies - Odessey And Oracle

We share 55% of our top 100 (which is actually less than I thought, but I'm glad it's less than 75% because that would be boring). Surprised London Calling, Joni's Blue, Agaetis Byrjun and Purple Rain aren't in RYM's top 100 🤔 — as for us, I imagine Bringing It All Back Home, Blackstar and Either/Or will enter BEA's top 100 eventually.

RYM's list included archive release, live albums and soundtracks. Figured it was fair. Ours includes all that anyway.

Thanks again for this- really highlights the differences and is food for thought 😁 😁

I think I must be looking at a diff RYM list (without live albums). I can see Fishmans but not the others you mention. I will have to tinker around and have a look at the other variations of RYM’s list…

I have Death, Pharoah Sanders and Tyler The Creator albums in the #90- #100 region of RYM, presumably these were pushed out by the live albums on the version you were looking at.