Best Ever Albums

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Anonymous — Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:23:26 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/18/2012 00:23

albummaster wrote:

an_outlaw wrote:

If anything like them are put into the website, how will they work? Like genre tags or "tagging" albums. Who gets to decide what is what? Will it be a few or would it be every user?

I think it's going to be tagging instead of genres. The implementation details, I've not thought through in enough detail yet. I've got some thoughts but they're not clear enough. Once I've finished delivering the membership ladder, my thoughts will turn to how to do this, and the details will get decided.

an_outlaw wrote:

I do have some concerns for such a thing. Firstly, it reduces music into simple words which do not express all of which the album is about. Will words like "inspiring", "magical", "transcending", "poetry" be allowed? They would go a lot further describing a piece of music than "jazz", "rock", "indie", alternative".

I think this is the main reason why genres won't really work on a site like this, it won't be flexible enough and probably too many items would get tagged with the same things. I think a tag should be seen more as a descriptive label for something (although a tag could also be the name of a genre as well).

an_outlaw wrote:

...They wouldn't have listened to half the albums but will instead base their "genre tags" on their preconceived notions of the music. Quicker than we know it... they will be the highest tags.

This is an implementation detail. When it's time to add the feature, we'll discuss amongst us how this should work.

an_outlaw wrote:

In fact... people shouldn't be using genres at all. It leads to bad things. People describing music with diluted words and hindering what others listen to. I see little good with labeling genres. 😲

Is there anything someone would like to say in defense for them?

yes, in their defence, I'd say genres/tags will make this site a lot more useful to a lot of people e.g. if you are wanting to find the best albums tagged 'acoustic' or whatever, you just filter a list of items having this tag. I've lost count of the number of times this has been asked for, so is definitely wanted/needed.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions 😄 I had been meaning to write this sooner than I did. I'm happy to see that flexibility will be involved with what tags are chosen

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Facetious — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 06:27:51 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 03/16/2012 10:27

albummaster wrote:

these are the types of debate which make me think tags will work much better than genres. People can then assign things how they like, and the most popular tags will rise to the surface. Genres don't fit correctly in a lot of cases (especially on albums where there might be more than one style), and tags are far more descriptive and flexible.

🤔 Ya got a point there.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

albummaster — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 06:20:20 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/16/2012 10:20

these are the types of debate which make me think tags will work much better than genres. People can then assign things how they like, and the most popular tags will rise to the surface. Genres don't fit correctly in a lot of cases (especially on albums where there might be more than one style), and tags are far more descriptive and flexible.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Facetious — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 06:14:47 GMT

Author: Facetious

Posted: 03/16/2012 10:14

Hayden wrote:

RFNAPLES wrote:

Rock includes rap, hip-hop

#-o

I agree with Hayden here. Hip-hop should be included as a separate genre.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

videoheadcleaner — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 05:12:59 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 03/16/2012 09:12

RFNAPLES wrote:

The problem with all the sub-genres is that they aren't clear now and will be less so tomorrow. People will bitch, just like you did over Allmusic’s system (which I didn’t consult to establish my tags) or any other scheme.

Sorry if it seemed like bitching. Just find it weird.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 03:01:34 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/16/2012 07:01

There are thousands of tags one can create and the terms will change their meaning and usefulness over time. What I did was break my collection into large groups. I really don't care if it is metal or house, it’s Rock and not classical or country. This type of high-level initial filtering used by BEA will allow members to find all Rock or all Jazz etc. The problem with all the sub-genres is that they aren't clear now and will be less so tomorrow. People will bitch, just like you did over Allmusic’s system (which I didn’t consult to establish my tags) or any other scheme. Keep it simple.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

videoheadcleaner — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 02:19:11 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 03/16/2012 06:19

RFNAPLES wrote:

Yes House is a type of Rock. See also Allmusic which considers it a type of Rock/Pop.

Yes but you don't have to think it is part of that, just because a website told you so.

Anyway, House as a subgenre is actually under Electronic on Allmusic as well.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:29:54 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/15/2012 12:29

Yes House is a type of Rock. See also Allmusic which considers it a type of Rock/Pop.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

videoheadcleaner — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 02:47:16 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 03/15/2012 06:47

RFNAPLES wrote:

Yup and it includes all the tags used by harkan:

Really? House is rock music?

Not this House

This House...

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Xavygravy — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:05:17 GMT

Author: Xavygravy

Posted: 03/15/2012 05:05

There's nothing wrong with 'generic genre tagging'. Most people will want this feature.

What you're concerned about is that these 'generic genres' are not specific enough; this can be solved with 'subgenres'.

The 'generic genres' would be a predefined list.
Subgenres could be by suggestion, as they're more volatile and new subgenres appear all the time.

Solved.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:44:29 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/15/2012 02:44

Yup and it includes all the tags used by harkan:

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Hayden — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 22:36:13 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 03/15/2012 02:36

RFNAPLES wrote:

Rock includes rap, hip-hop

🤡

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

albummaster — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:58:28 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 03/14/2012 17:58

an_outlaw wrote:

If anything like them are put into the website, how will they work? Like genre tags or "tagging" albums. Who gets to decide what is what? Will it be a few or would it be every user?

an_outlaw wrote:

...They wouldn't have listened to half the albums but will instead base their "genre tags" on their preconceived notions of the music. Quicker than we know it... they will be the highest tags.

This is an implementation detail. When it's time to add the feature, we'll discuss amongst us how this should work.

an_outlaw wrote:

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

videoheadcleaner — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 02:53:25 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 03/14/2012 06:53

I have these among the usuals:

Ambient
Grunge
House
Industrial
New Wave
Post-Punk
Post-Rock
Progressive Rock
Synthpop
Trip-Hop

These would be custom tags and I think there would be a stock 10-15 tags that members could base albums on.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:42:29 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/14/2012 00:42

Yes there are ignorant people that could be confused by any tag system. Nevertheless a simple tagging system will provide the ability to do an initial filtering. For instance, I might want to listen to some jazz. Today I would have to look through the entire chart to hopefully discover titles.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:33:37 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/14/2012 00:33

RFNAPLES wrote:

These are the tags I use:

Rock includes alternative, indie, rap, hip-hop, soul, R&B, etc.
Pop includes artists like Mancini, Sinatra, Streisand, etc.

Within categories/tags I keep things alphabetically by artist.

They are slightly better than the ones I listed. Although some mentioned can convey some albums which are completely different as the same thing. People who then see the tags used that way may assume that, yes they are the same thing.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:28:54 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/14/2012 00:28

These are the tags I use:

Rock includes alternative, indie, rap, hip-hop, soul, R&B, etc.
Pop includes artists like Mancini, Sinatra, Streisand, etc.

Within categories/tags I keep things alphabetically by artist.

Re: Tagging (or genre tags)

RFNAPLES — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:15:30 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 03/14/2012 00:15

They are a starting point.

Tagging (or genre tags)

Anonymous — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:01:06 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 03/14/2012 00:01

This has been brought up a few times in the past. Thought I will ask a few questions about it.

If anything like them are put into the website, how will they work? Like genre tags or "tagging" albums. Who gets to decide what is what? Will it be a few or would it be every user?

I do have some concerns for such a thing. Firstly, it reduces music into simple words which do not express all of which the album is about. Will words like "inspiring", "magical", "transcending", "poetry" be allowed? They would go a lot further describing a piece of music than "jazz", "rock", "indie", alternative". "Jazz" is the least vague one there and even that comes no where near describing all the different types of music which is labeled "jazz" 😲 "rock" is the worst amongst them, "alternative" is... well "alternative" to what? And "indie" has seemed to have lost its meaning over time.

I'm pointing no fingers here but there are people whose music view only gets hindered by such things. And they will throw tags like "indie" or "alternative" at anything with a guitar without a second thought. Tags like "rap" and "electronic" will be used at any chance they can be used. There will come people (maybe as soon as such a thing is in place) who will want to pigeon hole everything in the top 1000 in one single sitting using the most mundane "genre tags" possible. They wouldn't have listened to half the albums but will instead base their "genre tags" on their preconceived notions of the music. Quicker than we know it... they will be the highest tags.

Finally people finding new music are going to look at the genre tags. They will look at them not to decide on what to listen to but instead what NOT to listen to. "Oh that's indie/alternative/metal... I won't listen to that." 😕

It's not that this website isn't ready for "genre tags", it's that most people shouldn't be trusted with "tagging genres". In fact... people shouldn't be using genres at all. It leads to bad things. People describing music with diluted words and hindering what others listen to. I see little good with labeling genres. 😲

Is there anything someone would like to say in defense for them?