Best Ever Albums

Re: Genre disambiguation.

Richie Hunt — Sat, 16 May 2009 01:53:49 GMT

Author: Richie Hunt

Posted: 05/16/2009 05:53

I think you are the type of person who really wants to understand things, probably a 'thirst for knowledge'. It makes you seem very smart, which im pretty sure is spot on. But being smart also means knowing when to stop... that maybe more wisdom then intellect, but nothing you say will give you the answer you are looking for with RF. RF is just a real strange cat. 🧱

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Sat, 16 May 2009 01:04:09 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/16/2009 05:04

Richie Hunt wrote:

Is this how our 'intelligent' leaders of powerful countries make decisions and debate? No wonder the world has gone to shit... Jewsom, leave it alone, be smarter than wasting your time on this. Surely you have learnt from your previous discussions with RF.

I know, I know. I honestly haven't encountered anyone like RF, in person or on the internet. It's truly fascinating. I mean, the things that he says. The gall to make a claim, have it proven false, and then claim he didn't make it...wow. It amazes me. I'm truly curious as to how this person even functions in real life.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

Richie Hunt — Fri, 15 May 2009 21:34:41 GMT

Author: Richie Hunt

Posted: 05/16/2009 01:34

Is this how our 'intelligent' leaders of powerful countries make decisions and debate? No wonder the world has gone to shit... Jewsom, leave it alone, be smarter than wasting your time on this. Surely you have learnt from your previous discussions with RF.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 18:07:12 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 22:07

RFNAPLES wrote:

Repeat I said nothing about RYM, only provided genre quotes there from.

This statement is true: "A vote on a single style label for an album by an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious."

This scenario does not exist. How is that statement relevant to the discussion? Answer me this, does that apply to RYM? If you answer no, which you would if you were honest, then tell me what the hell that statement had to do with anything.

The "truth" of it is meaningless, since it's not happening. A group of non-experts calling a horse a dog because it has four legs is also fallacious, but there are no groups doing this, so who cares about the fallacious nature of it? You're criticizing imaginary internet groups that you made up. At least, that's what you try to make it out as, since you were caught not knowing what the hell you were talking about it. This is pathetic. I really think you're joking with me.

I find it very hard to believe that I made a case for rym over allmusic, and you responded with that, yet you weren't talking about rym. Naples, give it up, please. Wait, seriously, are you joking with me?

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 17:14:14 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 21:14

Repeat I said nothing about RYM, only provided genre quotes there from.

This statement is true: "A vote on a single style label for an album by an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious."

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 17:05:27 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 21:05

I get it now, you were talking about an imaginary internet group that doesn't exist, who casts votes and insists that an album only be labeled by one genre. How is it relevant if it doesn't apply to allmusic or RYM, the two genres at hand? There is no internet group that exists. You're making up groups to denounce their methods that you made up, and all has nothing to do with the conversation. Please come back down to planet earth. Just give up. You were caught spreading falsehoods about RYM. Get over it. You're done.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 16:10:33 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 20:10

If I wanted to attribute that generic statement to RYM specifically I would have. The statement is true. Please keep your opinions of what I mean to yourself. I will gladly say what I mean and mean what I say, I don't need your confusion.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 16:05:21 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 20:05

Really? In the post that preceded it, I talked about the voting system on RYM. Then you followed with this:

"A vote on a single style label for an album by an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious."

Tell me, to what "vote" from "an internet group of non-experts" were you referring?

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 15:59:25 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 19:59

Jewsome, you attributed my post to RYM, I didn't.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 15:58:10 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 19:58

The London Calling by The Clash song "Rudie Can't Fail" features a horn section and mixes elements of pop, soul, ska and reggae music together.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 15:57:11 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 19:57

RFNAPLES wrote:

A vote on a single style label for an album by an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious.

You said this about rym, buddy. RYM albums have multiple labels, primary and secondary. The site is not declaring "an album a certain single style when it contains more". We've proven this. The only thing that is "fallacious" was your claim about the site. Why would you lie when the proof is in your post? Naples, come on. Now are you willing to admit that your claim about RYM was false? We'll do this step by step.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 15:36:06 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 19:36

"are you willing to admit that your claim about RYM was completely unfounded and untrue in every regard?" NO, I made no claim about RYM.

"often inappropriate to label artists or albums" was a statement not an argument even if you wish it to be. I said it and did not say anybody else did. Do you determine what comments can and cannot be made on this site? You have never proved anything to me yet.

Read my post, I posted two different quotes from Allmusic. You posted at least that many from RYM.

Burn your stupid strawman! I find Allmusic more reliable than Jewsome, it is published in print and digital formats, written by educated critics, and widely read.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:45:13 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 18:45

"I'm no fucking Buddhist, but this is enlightenment"
- Bjork, "Alarm Call" from Homogenic.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:43:27 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 18:43

You haven't once responded to any point I made. Sorry if my exposing your many false claims seemed trite. If someone proves you wrong on many points, just calling it trite is a pathetic defense. Tell me, are you willing to admit that your claim about RYM was completely unfounded and untrue in every regard? Or is that another question you will avoid.

Naples, you seriously scare me. Why would choose to restate this strawman: "I stated that I think it is often inappropriate to label artists or albums by only one and prefer to apply those labels to songs to avoid over generalization"

when I repeatedly proved that it is an irrelevant strawman argument? No one here, or RYM, like you falsely claimed, is trying to do that!!! Stop talking about it. It's not relevant. I begged you to stop bringing it up because no one is talking about that or arguing against it.

Talk about trite!!! You are a joke. You've spent the last three posts reposting how allmusic classifies Bjork and this strawman about one genre labeling that no one is promoting. Please, do us a favor, and repost allmusic's genre labels for Bjork for the 4th time. Trite? Don't make me laugh.

"Just listen to the music and form your own opinions."

Hahaha. Dude, take your own advice. You've done nothing but repeatedly quote allmusic. You have no opinion. Allmusic is your opinion.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

1234567890 — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:36:40 GMT

Author: 1234567890

Posted: 05/15/2009 18:36

Ive, always heard about how many genres are on the album "london calling". but i never eally know which is wich, (silly me). Maybe johnny rocket fingers could help me out, or something like that. which song is of the ska variety?

Re: Genre disambiguation.

telefunker — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:33:13 GMT

Author: telefunker

Posted: 05/15/2009 18:33

how can you say buddha was not around when bjork was when one is all and all is one? time is illusion and all there ever is/has been/will be is right now.. bjork and buddha are slices of the same pie, that same pie as you and i..

..apparently..

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 14:21:41 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 18:21

Hunt/Harvos since Björk wasn't around when Lord Buddha was I don't know if he would classify Björk. However, Lord Buddha upon hearing this song:

"Fair goes the dancing when the Sitar is tuned,
Tune us the Sitar neither low nor high,
And we will dance away the hearts of men.
The string overstretched breaks, the music dies,
The string overslack is dumb and the music dies,
Tune us the Sitar neither low nor high."

realized then that he should not go to extremes in torturing the body by starvation and that he should adopt the golden mean or the happy medium or the middle path by avoiding extremes. Then he began to eat food in moderation. He gave up the earlier extreme practices and took to the middle path.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

RFNAPLES — Fri, 15 May 2009 13:54:11 GMT

Author: RFNAPLES

Posted: 05/15/2009 17:54

I don’t know why I bother to respond to Jewsome; I’ll only get back another long trite reply. I don’t know why anybody would care how Jewsome or I classify an artist/group, album, or song/track. We often use genres and styles to try to give a person who hasn’t heard same a glimpse of what they might experience. We could debate ad infinitum what a term means and which one applies. But it is much easier and quicker to sample the music. Genres and styles can be helpful in cataloging and filtering if one is cognizant of their innate limitations and usefulness.

I chose to quote Allmusic as a quick way of providing the genre/style of Björk and then of Debut. I stated that I think it is often inappropriate to label artists or albums by only one and prefer to apply those labels to songs to avoid over generalization.

Here is what RYM says:

Björk--Genres: Art Pop, Electronica, Progressive Pop, Experimental, Soundtracks, A cappella, Film Soundtrack, Folk Pop, Electropop, Vocal Jazz

Debut by Björk--Genres: Art Pop, Alternative Dance, Progressive Pop, Electronica, Dance-Pop. Common Tags: electronic, electronica, 1993, pop, iceland, experimental, art pop, alternative, trip-hop, 90s, icelandic, alternative dance, dance, singer/songwriter, trip hop, bjork, album, 1990s, 90's, alternative pop/rock, progressive pop.

Here is what Wikipedia says:

Bjork--Genres(s): Electronica, Alternative, IDM, Trip Hop

Debut--Genre: Electronic, House, Tribal House

You will never have total agreement on genre/styles and who cares. Just listen to the music and form your own opinions.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

joannajewsom — Fri, 15 May 2009 11:35:06 GMT

Author: joannajewsom

Posted: 05/15/2009 15:35

"I read your reply. Perhaps you once again assumed that a responder must agree with you since you are always right and have impeccable wisdom and debating skills; wrong on all accounts."

I said that you didn't read my reply because you said this:

"An album can often have songs with a variety styles and forcing it to be labeled with only one style is innacurate at best. An album with only one style is often boring."

even though I said this about Bjork:

"Experimental, Electronica, Trip-Hop all apply to Bjork, and Alternative Dance more to her earlier stuff...and Art Pop".

So, you were either pulling a strawman argument out of nowhere; or you just didn't read my post to realize that that particular point was completely irrelevant, since no one here was trying to place one label on Bjork, nor did anyone claim that any artist should only have one label. For some strange reason, in your very next post, you say this: "If an album contains songs with different styles, it must therefore bare more than one style label." Naples, get this through your head: no one here is going against this claim. We're talking about which labels apply, not if an album should have more than one. Remember that time I mentioned the numerous labels I think apply to Bjork? No, you obviously didn't read that or you would not have brought up this strawman argument again. Please, do not bring up this "revelation" again, because that's beside the point. I addressed that when I said this in my last post:

"I don't know why you chose to say that as if you're saying something new, informative, or even relevant here, especially when I already said that Experimental, Electronica, Trip-Hop all apply to Bjork, and Alternative Dance more to her earlier stuff...and Art Pop'. No one here is "forcing it to be labeled with only one style," so I'm not sure where you are pulling this strawman from. Why don't read someone's post before you respond?"

That is why I said you didn't read my post. And you proved once again with your new post that you didn't read my post.

I also said that you didn't read my post because you decided to repeat what allmusic lists Bjork's album as, even though I said this:

"Bjork is not alternative rock, no matter what allmusic classifies her as. I'd love to hear them make a case for placing her in the same category as Pixies, Nirvana, and R.E.M. If the term is broad enough to apply to Bjork and Nirvana, it's completely useless...In my years of using both allmusic and rateyourmusic, I have found the latter to be much more accurate when labeling music by genre."

If you would have read my post, you would have already known that I was well aware of how allmusic labels Bjork, and I completely disagree. If you had any regard for my opinion and stance on allmusic, you would not have just repeated your last post. You would have tried to reconcile the the major flaw that I brought up, and possibly made a case for allmusic's inclusion of these artists. It's like you saying "the bible says ____", I say "I don't care what the bible says because it's inconsistent and flawed", and then you replying "well, the bible says ____".

Any person with the lowest level of debating skills and respect for what the other person had to say, would have addressed that valid point. You didn't. Therefore, you either didn't read my post, or you just have no regard for the points I bring up. Want to see how it's done? From now on, I will respond to the points you bring up.

"A vote on a single style label for an album by an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious. First because it is at best the style of the majority of tracks or the most popular tracks and; second because it is a vote that you yourself should recognize as evil bandwagoning, some may say pooled ignorance. "

Wasn't it you who said something in past forums about 20 people believing something is black and 1 believing it's white, and that this is supporting evidence? Yes, you did. It seems that you're a huge hypocrite who just went against that "belief" in order to support your claim.

And claiming rym is declaring an album to be a single style is a completely false claim!!! You obviously are not familiar with the website that you are criticizing. Another huge strawman argument that proves that you either don't read, or haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. Bjork's Debut currently has 5 (5!!!) genre labels on rym- 3 primary genre labels and 2 secondary genre labels (the secondary labels are for the undertones and influences- note that alternative rock didn't even make it as a secondary genre). Therefore, your claim that rym is "an internet group of non-experts declaring an album a certain single style when it contains more is fallacious" is the only thing around here that is fallacious. What a joke you are. Check out the website before you go around making false claims.

So, your first point that you make about that is fallacious, given that there are secondary genres for, to quote rym: "Secondary genres include influences and undertones that are less predominant, or not representative of the album as a whole." So your theory about the labels only being given for "the majority of the tracks" is false. The site has a separate labeling system to avoid that very baseless claim you're making against it. It seems you have no regard for my opinion or how rym works, and you just make up our arguments and positions for us.

You also have no knowledge of the way that the genre voting works. Rate Your Music is probably the most popular music website in the world of its kind, and it's not just going to let anything fly. Genre votes are weighted. You can not just sign up today, vote Bjork as hip-hop and thinks it's going to show-up. I've placed almost 100 genre votes, and my vote still does not have the weight to place any label on an album without support from other users. The more relevant votes you place and the more experience you have as a user, the more your vote is weighted. They also have site mods who oversee everything. This claim about them being non-experts is ridiculous, and way to write off the entire community as pooled ignorance, even though you clearly have not used the site.

How much of an expert do you need to be to distinguish between genres? Every genre page on rym has a detailed description of the genre style, its roots, and examples, just in case those non-experts want some insight on what they're voting on. And the genres on rym, by far, outnumber the genres on allmusic. This is because the rym site and community are very particular about distinguishing between the genres which have very subtle differences. I wonder if allmusic has atmospheric black metal, depressive black metal, melodica black metal, national socialist black metal, and symphonic black metal like rym does. Nah, they probably just slap an umbrella term on it and call it a day. I love allmusic, but anyone who has knowledge of both would know that rym is much superior in this regard.
Check out the genre list for yourself before you criticize it.

http://rateyourmusic.com/rgenre/

I challenge you to show me a rym genre description that is not as accurate or more accurate than allmusic. Look up your favorite albums and see if they do not have them accurately labeled. They do. I trust the system because of the 800+ albums in my rym catalog, they were all accurate. There have been a few disagreements on genre, but they have been mainly within secondary genres in which it really could go either way.

I don't see how bandwagoning can come into play. There are no billion dollar corporations soliciting rym users for their vote, nor does voting a certain style of music a certain genre make you cool or hip. I don't see how the bandwagon effect could even be a significant factor if any, in such a situation.

You said:
"To state that you know what an album is or isn't in spite of what others say is just asinine. "

Hahaha. Isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing with the 29 rym voters who say that Bjork's Debut is not alternative rock. You contradict yourself too much, Naples. Remember your own wisdom, if 20 people think something is black...in this case, 29 people...
You may not like it, but the majority is actually against you this time. You can't fall back on record sales like you did with Spears. You're on the side of defending Silver Apples and you're sinking.

Naples, please respond my points. And please don't bring up this idea that anyone wants to give Bjork or anyone one label. I don't want to, rym doesn't want to, so please put this strawman to rest.

Re: Genre disambiguation.

Richie Hunt — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:26:16 GMT

Author: Richie Hunt

Posted: 05/15/2009 14:26

I wonder what genre and style Lord Buddah might classify Bjork as... 😨