Best Ever Albums

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

ptaylor1989 — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:43:51 GMT

Author: ptaylor1989

Posted: 02/15/2013 01:43

That makes perfect sense! I sincerely have a lot of respect for your hop hop taste especially with you on the other side of the pond. Today I tinted my car's windows and added a new speaker system and still haven't gone on my Valentine's day date yet. As soon as i get a chance, I'll be all up in your chart and your recommendation 😄

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:21:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/14/2013 22:21

ptaylor1989 wrote:

Will do. But last time I looked, everything else was almost too tidily conglomerated. Almost like you copied and pasted from somewhere or assumed an ignorant audience. There are no mistakes or questionable records in the decades from what I can remember. I've heard all the records from the 2000's back and would agree, these are seminal records.

Im curious as to what you do because if i were to teach a hip hop class, id definitely use your masterfully ordered decade charts as a foundation. But it's a bit normative in that you didn't take any chances with your audience. Please don't kill me for this review because I haven't taken another look but I will say I remember truly enjoying the 2010's chart. I'll peruse it after breakfast...

I can PM if y'all want to keep this thread on topic.

To a large extent I agree with what you've written, and I think there are a couple of obvious reasons behind this. For a start, hip-hop is a genre in which technical ability is key for a lot of listeners, and certainly was for me at least up until two or three years ago (I've mellowed on this recently, and find that a rapper's personality is now the main thing. It always has been, hence my love of Ghostface, but as each day passes I pay less and less attention to a rapper's proficiency, although being extremely capable and dexterous on the mic still catches my attention). This means that so much emphasis is put on a rapper's cadence, flow and rhyme scheme that it leads to a lot of Top 5/10/50/whatever lists having a very similar look and feel due to most people's favourite rappers all being pooled from an elite group of MCs (that said, I don't think that a 2000s Top 20 including Blu, Murs, Binary Star, Elzhi, Masta Ace, Sean Price, Pharoahe Monch's Desire, The Clipse's Lord Willin' is in any way normative, even if those rappers don't stray into overtly experimental territory, although I don't live in America and don't know whether those albums are regularly seen amongst an average hip-hop fan's favourite albums. Admittedly my '90s chart is far more predictable and canonical, although again I doubt you'd see the likes of Rhythm-Al-Ism, The Art of Storytelling and Super Tight, amongst others, in many Top 20s). Hip-hop is a genre in which, for me at any rate, there tends to be a fairly black and white sense of "good hip-hop" and "bad hip-hop". There are experiments I can appreciate, and albums that divide opinion, but on the whole I find that - amongst people in my life who know a lot about hip-hop - there is less room for completely subjective appraisal. To explain what I mean by this, one man could completely hate Bob Dylan's voice and lyrics, whilst others liken him to a deity. Most hip-hop fans tend to agree that Nas has a good rapping voice and strong lyrics. Even people that find Nas boring still admit that lyrically he's stunning. There is a massive proportion of rock fans, with otherwise impeccable taste, who refuse to admit that Dylan has any of the talent his followers claim. Nas may have his share of haters, but there tends to be a knowing respect that says, "yeah, regardless of what I think, he's one of the best ever" (I'm not sure what I think of this, as personally I believe that this is the same as people saying "I don't like the Beatles, but objectively they're great", or "Cher must be great because Believe sold 20 million copies"). Anyway, it does lead to a shared opinion between fans on who the greatest rappers are and what the greatest albums are, in a way that I don't believe occurs - at least so blatantly and overtly - within other genres. Secondly, the point of the charts was to list my favourite hip-hop albums, and admittedly my tastes are pretty conservative when it comes to hip-hop. This is probably the major reason behind my charts looking as they do. I've always found enjoyment in the standard formula of soul/jazz sample + decent rapping, and whilst I like a lot outside of that template it is still that which I find myself being drawn to and going back to. Lastly, living in the UK I didn't - until the recent internet influenced phenomenon of artists who would usually never be heard outside of their home states finding national, and international, acclaim - hear a lot of underground artists. The first hip-hop album I bought, as an eleven year-old, was Jay-Z's The Blueprint. You wouldn't find interesting or experimental albums and mixtapes over here very easily up until the last two or three years, and I think that as I catch up to a lot of the scenes that never made their way over to this island you'll see the charts evolve. I'm genuinely sorry that you don't find the charts particularly interesting (or perhaps, more accurately, too conservative), but they are charts that I feel honestly represent my taste in hip-hop at this point in my life. If that's too "pedantic and cliche" and not "nuanced" or "meaningful" enough for your tastes then I can do little more than apologise and ask you to accept that, despite us both clearly loving the genre, that we have different tastes and want different things from it. I do look forward to your hip-hop chart(s) though (whenever you're eligible for custom charts), as I feel the site needs more of them, obviously, and because I value your opinion (as I've said before, your chart is great). I'd also point you towards this chart as you continue your search for a BEA hip-hop chart that satisfies you. Hope that all makes some sort of sense.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

ptaylor1989 — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:29:40 GMT

Author: ptaylor1989

Posted: 02/14/2013 17:29

lethalnezzle wrote:

Check my decade charts. Apologies if you have already and they just don't appease you.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Jasonconfused — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:45:44 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 02/14/2013 16:45

Puncture Repair wrote:

I always enjoy your contributions to the site, regardless of your personal opinion. It's healthy to have both sides of the coin - we're all prone to taking things personally and to heart now and then. I sincerely hope you don't mean this.

I second this. I always enjoy your input Romanelli.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:43:00 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/14/2013 16:43

ptaylor1989 wrote:

I'm actually a HUGE hip-hop fan. My knowledge of jazz is extensive but my love for hip hop might very well be even larger. The reason I don't talk more hip-hop is because I literally haven't seen a good hip-hop chart. I'm still looking of course but I think most of the rap tastes on this site are a bit pedantic and cliche. They are built to be accessible and popular rather than challenging. I'm guilty of only including a certain type of rap album here because other than the hip hop game lethal puts on, people seem far more preoccupied with other genre. We all know hip-hop is largely a cultural aesthetic and like any canon of music takes a certain level of historical context to fully appreciate. The majority of discussed genre rarely overlaps with hip-hop but with all the hip hop we wade through, im shocked that a significant hip hop chart hasn't become more popular.

This BAWP crap isn't cutting it for me and it doesn't cut it for most avid fans. So please, I challenge someone to actually give their nuanced taste of rap a chance to coalesce into a meaningful chart. I can already tell which users have at least a nominal understanding of rap and am very interested in seeing what we come up with. A meaningful chart that invites members in and challenges their tastes is certainly much more important than blanketing and disempowering terms such as "racist".

Check my decade charts. Apologies if you have already and they just don't appease you.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:15:45 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/14/2013 16:15

Romanelli wrote:

I will post as little as possible on these forums from now on. I should have learned that a long time ago.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:16:55 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/14/2013 06:16

ptaylor1989 wrote:

I do like hip-hop, but I can't say I know it as well as most other genres, and probably have fairly BAWP tastes. I love A Tribe Called Quest, Eric B. & Rakim, Beastie Boys, Kendrick Lamar, that sort of stuff. I can't say I've delved deep enough to really give a fully educated opinion, but I would like to see more hip-hop discussion going on around here as well, both for the fact that I could learn from it as well as the fact there isn't enough. Also I agree with the featuring stuff to be in song titles, if that's the artist's intentions I agree with it, and it does make a difference to the song when there is a guest and that should be acknowledged when it's so ingrained into the culture.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

ptaylor1989 — Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:51:56 GMT

Author: ptaylor1989

Posted: 02/14/2013 05:51

I'm actually a HUGE hip-hop fan. My knowledge of jazz is extensive but my love for hip hop might very well be even larger. The reason I don't talk more hip-hop is because I literally haven't seen a good hip-hop chart. I'm still looking of course but I think most of the rap tastes on this site are a bit pedantic and cliche. They are built to be accessible and popular rather than challenging. I'm guilty of only including a certain type of rap album here because other than the hip hop game lethal puts on, people seem far more preoccupied with other genre. We all know hip-hop is largely a cultural aesthetic and like any canon of music takes a certain level of historical context to fully appreciate. The majority of discussed genre rarely overlaps with hip-hop but with all the hip hop we wade through, im shocked that a significant hip hop chart hasn't become more popular.

This BAWP crap isn't cutting it for me and it doesn't cut it for most avid fans. So please, I challenge someone to actually give their nuanced taste of rap a chance to coalesce into a meaningful chart. I can already tell which users have at least a nominal understanding of rap and am very interested in seeing what we come up with. A meaningful chart that invites members in and challenges their tastes is certainly much more important than blanketing and disempowering terms such as "racist".

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Romanelli — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:28:35 GMT

Author: Romanelli

Posted: 02/14/2013 03:28

lethalnezzle wrote:

True, I was tired last night and having slept on it I realise there were better, more respectful ways of making my point.

Sorry Romanelli, I certainly shouldn't have gotten personal or labelled you a "closeted racist" (which I know you aren't, which perhaps makes the insult even worse, but I was personally offended by your post given that I make and take immense pleasure from hip-hop music. That being said, there was no need whatsoever for that particular slight, and I feel ashamed that I used it simply to further a point). I apologise wholeheartedly and retract the last paragraph of the post in question.

I just saw this today. I’m going to keep my response to you as short as possible.

You made some good and valid points about hip hop music. I admit that there are things that I do not fully understand about how some things work in the genre, and I may have not come across in a way that was fully sensitive to your feelings on the subject, for which I apologize to you. There are more instances of things that I mentioned than you are admitting, but whatever. I appreciate your passion for the music you love, as I have the same thing inside of me. It was not my intention to be insensitive towards you, and I’m sorry you took it that way, and that I came across that way.

I will comply with whatever decision albummaster comes to on the subject.

As for the last paragraph (and the later apology above): I will say this. You are EXTREMELY fortunate that you still have an account here. And if I, as a moderator, ever see you go off on anyone like you did to me again, I will do everything in my power to have you permanently banned from this site. You said things in that post that an apology simply does not cover. I work hard on this site to help make it better, and I will not be spoken to like that by anyone for speaking my mind…even if I am incorrect. And neither I, nor anyone else on this site, should endure the abuse that tends to spew forth from you. What you said is beyond apology, and you should really be ashamed.

I will post as little as possible on these forums from now on. I should have learned that a long time ago.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

HigherThanTheSun — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:45:10 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 02/13/2013 23:45

Puncture Repair wrote:

If that's how it's listed on the jewel case, as far as I'm concerned that's what it should be listed on the site.

This, basically.

If I download an album which doesn't have the featured artists on the end of a song title then I add them myself, I think they're important so yeah I'd like to see them on BEA.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

albummaster — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:38:56 GMT

Author: albummaster

Posted: 02/13/2013 16:38

ShaneSpear wrote:

I can appreciate making sure to canonize somebody's work, but I can also empathize with the people who thinks it makes the titles in your collection or on a site....less pretty. I'm OCD about my song titles, whether they are downloaded by legal or illegal means. If I take a running tally in my head, Feat and Ft have to be the two most deleted words in my song's titles/information (see also: explicit, deluxe, [album version], and remastered.)

It would be nice if we could agree on one universal system "Feat or Ft, Artist Name or Song Title, etc" but since we can't I just delete them all. I'm smart enough to search rapgenius or, you know, study my album to know who is on it.

I think we have to be pragmatic here, and I'm equally OCD about my music library. IMO, in the absence of additional fields to hold the extra information I think we need to hold this information as part of the title if it is credited as such (at least we shouldn't have the problem on BEA of 'deluxe', 'remastered' etc). By capturing it, we can acknowledge the people that do want this, and at some point in the future, we can then move the information into an additional field. I think annotating these consistently seems to be the main issue here, so I'm in favour of coming up with a common standard so that everyone is aware of how these should be listed. I think we should only do this where the featured artist is explicitly listed on the artwork as part of the track title (and not where they aren't). Hayden gave a few good examples earlier in the thread.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 09:57:45 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/13/2013 14:57

19loveless91 wrote:

Agree with 95 % of what you wrote, lethal, but it annoys me that once again you couldn't avoid getting personal. And bringing up "subconscious racism". You did it once before, quite frankly it's ridiculous and insulting (how ironic, given what the message of your post was)

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

19loveless91 — Wed, 13 Feb 2013 04:31:33 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 02/13/2013 09:31

Agree with 95 % of what you wrote, lethal, but it annoys me that once again you couldn't avoid getting personal. And bringing up "subconscious racism". You did it once before, quite frankly it's ridiculous and insulting (how ironic, given what the message of your post was)

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

ShaneSpear — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:06:14 GMT

Author: ShaneSpear

Posted: 02/13/2013 04:06

I can appreciate making sure to canonize somebody's work, but I can also empathize with the people who thinks it makes the titles in your collection or on a site....less pretty. I'm OCD about my song titles, whether they are downloaded by legal or illegal means. If I take a running tally in my head, Feat and Ft have to be the two most deleted words in my song's titles/information (see also: explicit, deluxe, [album version], and remastered.)

It would be nice if we could agree on one universal system "Feat or Ft, Artist Name or Song Title, etc" but since we can't I just delete them all. I'm smart enough to search rapgenius or, you know, study my album to know who is on it.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Jasonconfused — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:51:18 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 02/13/2013 02:51

lethalnezzle wrote:

I was talking more in terms of the fact that rock music is a genre that is mainly made by white people, and seen as a genre that is mainly white. The fact that there are occasionally black rock musicians does not stop this from being true. Hip-hop music is a genre mainly made by black people, and is seen as a genre that is mainly black. The fact Eminem raps doesn't stop that from being true either. Rock is an overwhelmingly white genre; hip-hop is an overwhelmingly black genre. A stubborn refusal to even attempt to cater to hip-hop fans strikes me as being slightly, if almost certainly subconsciously, racist. It may not be remotely racist, but that's how it appears to me.

Fair enough.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:49:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/13/2013 02:49

Jasonconfused wrote:

Great points, but I have a bit of issue with this part. Blues and blues-rock is heavily influenced by Black artists. Not only influenced by them, but one of the gods of blues-rock, Hendrix, is Black. This just seems a bit non-sequitur. Perhaps you're just addressing the fact a larger portion of the music is made by White people. I guess that much is true. I don't necessarily think that because someone judges or hates rap (not implying that Romanelli hates rap, although he might) means that it's a racial thing. For a long time I looked down on the electronic music that's so prevalent today because it relied so heavily on computers rather than "real instruments" (not sure how else to refer to them so I put them in quotes) but I really don't think that had anything to do with race. I had a problem with the essence of how the music was being mad, which is how I would interpret someone's dislike for rap.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Jasonconfused — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:39:56 GMT

Author: Jasonconfused

Posted: 02/13/2013 02:39

lethalnezzle wrote:

It says that hip-hop is not real music that doesn't deserve to be discussed alongside proper music that white people with guitars make.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:33:51 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/13/2013 02:33

lethalnezzle wrote:

I'm going to try and be as polite as possible, because I know you have admitted to knowing little about hip-hop and that you are trying to better your understanding. (Personally, I'd steer away from making sweeping, stupid generalisations until I did understand the genre, but it's your call Dino.)

You are painfully inaccurate. Having an artist featured on a song - except, admittedly, in a very small amount of cases whereby a label wants to help a new artist by getting said artist a "co-sign" from a recognised star (which are usually lead, or even standalone, singles anyway) - is not a way of "shouting out" an artist, but rather giving another rapper a verse in order to improve the track, be it through a variation of voices on the track or simply through the faith that the featured artist in question has something that is genuinely of value to add to the track. It is not a form of advertising.

In non-instrumental hip-hop (i.e. 99.9% of all mainstream hip-hop releases), the rapper is paramount. Within hip-hop culture, people do have arguments over who the great producers are and who makes better beats, but it is generally the rapper who most people rely on, talk about and spend hours and hours scrutinising and picking apart. A rapper can make a bad beat into a good song with a strong verse; the vice versa is rarely true. Therefore, when a guest rapper appears on a song, it is only right that the audience should know who that guest rapper is within the title. The album isn't credited to every rapper who appears on the album. If a hip-hop fan were to stumble across this site and find an album listing without the featured artists in brackets then they would simply assume that this site did not give a shit about hip-hop, that it was probably rock-centric and move on to another site. Why do you think we have so few avid hip-hop fans here? It certainly isn't because there are a shortage of smart, internet savvy hip-hop fans who want to share their views on music, and if you think otherwise then you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and the backwards stereotypes that you have of others. Seriously, it's entirely selfish and somewhat prehistoric to stop people from adding featured artists to a song title. Until there is a feature in place on this website in which people can add featured artists there is no way that people should be stopped from putting said artist into the title. I know it probably annoys you somewhat that this site isn't full of classic blues rock anymore Romanelli, but times have changed, and hip-hop fans need to know who is featured on a track because it matters to us. It may not matter to you, but it matters to us, and disallowing people from putting a featured artist into the title is essentially telling a potentially large section of the site's demographic that BEA does not give a shit about them, or their music, and has no intention of catering to their tastes. It says that hip-hop is not real music that doesn't deserve to be discussed alongside proper music that white people with guitars make. If adding featured artists to song titles is banned, or if I see that data that I personally have inputted has been changed in order to get rid of the featured artist from the title, I will have lost any faith in the integrity of BEA.

Lastly, "Bitches"? "MC Pooper"? Really? I thought you were better than that. If that's the way you see hip-hop, you're a fucking moron who doesn't deserve a fucking comment on any type of music. Yes there are song titles that are less than respectful towards women, but they aren't a majority. And trust me on this, I would know. You couldn't have just put "Song Title"? You had to insult a whole genre? You strike me as a closeted racist; a fucking dinosaur who doesn't like the fact that guitars are no longer paramount in pop music and who refuses to get with the times. You hate the term "dadrocker"? It's because you fucking embody that term.
Fuck off.

That was beautiful. Well done.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 21:27:48 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 02/13/2013 02:27

Romanelli wrote:

"Featuring" (...and this is a new thing, coming from hip hop) is a way for artists to "shout out" to the person who agreed to appear on a track. I suppose that paying them isn't enough...or listing them in the album credits isn't either.

"Featuring" is also a way for artists to place a piece of advertising onto their tracklists. People are more likely to listen to the song "Bitches" by MC Pooper if the track is marketed as "Bitches (feat. SNOOP DOGG).

Ultimately, a musician who plays on a song is not part of the song title, and shouldn't be included on the track listing. It's kinda tacky. Just because someone happens to rap a couple of lines in a song, or play bass, or diums, or a guitar solo, or sing harmony on the chorus...does that mean that they are entitled to be part of the song title?

Please say no to "feat." as part of song titles. It's tacky, and those who do it should find it embarrassing. No musician should ever have their name included in a song title...unless the song is about them, not because they contributed something to the recording. It's foolish.

Re: Featuring.. In Song Titles

Hayden — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 19:57:59 GMT

Author: Hayden

Posted: 02/13/2013 00:57

Romanelli wrote:

Well. That was embarrassing to read.

Most of this is either insulting or wrong...

Swans - Song For A Warrior (Ft. Karen O).

What's wrong with that? Karen's the only person that sings on that track.

Flying Lotus - ...And The World Laughs With You (Ft. Thom Yorke)

What's wrong with that? Thom is the only one that has vocals. He should be noted.

Queen - Under Pressure (Ft. David Bowie)

What's wrong with that? Or vise-versa, because that did the song together..

Crystal Castles - Not In Love (Ft. Robert Smith)
Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know (Ft. Kimbra)
Hercules & Love Affair - Blind (Ft. Antony)
Nick Cave - Henry Lee (Ft. PJ Harvey)
That entire Flaming Lips album...

None of those are hip-hop.... I admit, most hip-hop artists do look for others to do collaborations with, but it's to bring more into the song (if it's done correctly). Not for mass media purposes.

Let's keep it, just for respect? Please?