Best Ever Albums

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Evandar — Sat, 4 May 2013 07:18:29 GMT

Author: Evandar

Posted: 05/04/2013 11:18

lethalnezzle wrote:

I know this seems a bit pointless as I don't really have anything new or interesting or even coherent to add to this discussion, but I'd just like to thank everybody who's contributed for what has been, thus far, and extremely interesting read. It's one of those discussions where I feel like I agree with almost every new point that has been made, such is the persuasiveness of each argument, even if there is the odd sentence here or there that I take umbrage with. So yeah, cheers.

I can only say the same, as the few points I might bring up have already been brought up. Great thread. 😄

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 19:33:28 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 23:33

I know this seems a bit pointless as I don't really have anything new or interesting or even coherent to add to this discussion, but I'd just like to thank everybody who's contributed for what has been, thus far, and extremely interesting read. It's one of those discussions where I feel like I agree with almost every new point that has been made, such is the persuasiveness of each argument, even if there is the odd sentence here or there that I take umbrage with. So yeah, cheers.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 15:37:03 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 19:37

The more one listens to music from a certain country, the more albums from that country will likely be represented on their chart.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 15:32:04 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 19:32

MrFrogger wrote:

I don't really see the point in "trying" to get less albums from a certain country in your chart, it just seems like your trying to convince yourself to be more diverse, by sacrificing what you love.

I don't think one should add albums to their chart for the sake of diversity - but there is nothing wrong with looking for music from countries you may not be familiar with the music of, and if you like an album from there, adding it to your chart.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

MrFrogger — Fri, 3 May 2013 15:29:47 GMT

Author: MrFrogger

Posted: 05/03/2013 19:29

I don't really see the point in "trying" to get less albums from a certain country in your chart, it just seems like your trying to convince yourself to be more diverse, by sacrificing what you love.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 15:27:14 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 19:27

In regards to the ThePoe disagreeing with me a few posts back, I'd just like to say that he very well refuted my points and I learned a lot, so thanks. That's the good thing about being around people smarter than you, I suppose, you're always learning, haha.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 14:13:48 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 18:13

^ which is why current decade music is better than prior ones!

Whoops, let that slip. Seriously though, phenomenal post there. I'd love to expand but I'm not sure I have my thoughts together on this sort of thing. It's vague. We'll all be part machine some day if that hasn't already begun. We'll hardly be humans anymore. Either that, or independent thinking robots that are capable of adapting, creating themselves, and improving their own model will be the supreme beings of earth. Either us or our technology will some day be this giant ball floating in space, perhaps the size of a planet or bigger. Just this ultimate piece of technology always expanding and evolving itself, an ultimate hive mind. It'll be a glorious and sad day.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Robert Anton Wilson — Fri, 3 May 2013 13:55:45 GMT

Author: Robert Anton Wilson

Posted: 05/03/2013 17:55

Then again, despite everything I am saying, I do agree that the US/UK music model is currently dominating and that has a lot to do with market forces and the revolution in communication and breaking down of barriers that the age of information (heralded by many technical advancements such as the optic fiber, the home computer and the internet). In all areas of reunion, some common "language" must unite people. Like everything it has its advantages and its disadvantages.

Pros: It makes the human race stronger as a group because we more truly all become as one and can do more and better influence better one another when we are in contact with one another.

Cons: all universalisation efforts also imply the death and disappearance of idisyncratic thoughts, while the norm becomes itself less precise, things that are truly far off the norm truly disappear due to regression towards the mean. This makes the human race more vulnerable since the loss of diversity is an evolutionary disadvantage should sudden change come about.

In the end it is all a balancing act between diversity and unification. In time of globalisations, the powers that be strive towards increased harmonisation even if it leads to some form of extinction of things that do not fit the mold. In time of isolation, then the powers that be demonise differences and perceive "others" as threatening. Things like having a different language or a different alphabet are actually factors that protect one's culture from being eating up by another ones. someone else,s values cannot inadvertently become your kids if your kids cannot communicate with outside cultures.

We are in an era of globalisation, the advent of the internet represents the opening of a new frontier with impacts equivalent to the discovery of the Americas in the time of the explorers or to the opening of the trade routes with the orient in the days of Marco Polo.

We will likely see a new era of isolationism when the globalisation pull created by the opening of the digital frontier will have reached its apex. I expect the new frontier that will lie ahead then to be broke will be that of space ... can't wait to hear about those bands making it big on Mars at my favorite import record store. (That is as long as our stray bullets do not ending up killing everybody up there of course).

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Fri, 3 May 2013 11:40:49 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 15:40

Robert Anton Wilson wrote:

I like this point. I have had trouble before trying to find eastern Asian albums because of the character writing thing. I always wondered if I learned Japanese, if that would open me up to so much more music. Japan is the largest music market in the world right now, but looking at BEA and RYM one wouldn't know it.

I think bands from countries of other writing forms do benefit a lot from having an english band name (as well as their original name). Perhaps American and European bands could benefit from also having a Japanese band name hmmmm.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Robert Anton Wilson — Fri, 3 May 2013 11:16:47 GMT

Author: Robert Anton Wilson

Posted: 05/03/2013 15:16

Patman360 wrote:

In regards to the topic of cultures, of course all music originated from some culture, but I can relate to Brandon's point about music becoming generalised beyond any specific culture or tradition, maybe in the past music helped spread culture, but I genuinely can't see that happening nowadays. I live in rural Ireland and would never imagine music affecting the culture around here, I'm not even sure how to define culture anymore.
I'm probably making no sense anymore and I'm beginning to confuse myself, I need sleep and hopefully I'll more sense tomorrow.

The impact of culture spread will always be perceived differently by citizens of the empire (i.e. us - the residents of the US, the UK, the British commonwealth or of countries already having near identical cultures) then it is perceived by those form the outside countries being influenced (or in a less politically correct term "colonised".)

The whole point of this thread is that the americanisation/englicisation of world culture appears to be unstoppable, at least when looked at from the point of view of BEA charts.

Then again, even within the American/English culture BEA is biased. Based on the charts here it looks like as though there is not much quality jazz or classical music being produced lately. That is not a reflection of what music is being produced out there, it is only a reflection of what people who self-select themselves to participate in a site such as BEA like.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

meccalecca — Fri, 3 May 2013 11:12:42 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 05/03/2013 15:12

A lot of great points made already. I think economy is a huge part of it. Music is far less likely to be exported from poor nations. They have more important things to worry about. Yet, music remains a very very important part of their culture, even if not recorded.

Language is a massive part of it. I think it's important for people to be able to relate to the music they hear. A language barrier doesn't make it impossible, but it does certainly makes it more difficult. As an American it'd be harder to relate to an African musician singing about their life than an American doing the same. I actually think your environment greatly effects what you listen to. New York City is loud and claustrophobic, which often leads me to needing to escape with mellow music.

It's also perspective. Os Mutantes are gods in Brazil but a majority of Americans have never heard of them. It's no different with film really. India's Bollywood is probably a bigger business than Hollywood, but us Americans can hardly tell.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Robert Anton Wilson — Fri, 3 May 2013 10:59:43 GMT

Author: Robert Anton Wilson

Posted: 05/03/2013 14:59

Defago wrote:

Great points made so far. The language one, however, doesn't explain why instrumental music from the US and the UK is better regarded/known than instrumental music from the rest of the globe.

Have you ever tried to order albums by bands whose albums exist only printed using the cyrillic or japanese alphabet.

I know I have tired to update myself about prog in Russia since the fall of the iron curtain but I still have difficulty obtaining and differentiating band X from band Y in cyrillic ... well there you go, I was trying to type the album titles of some Russian bands in cyrillic to illustrate my point and this site does not even support it, good luck including them in your chart (or if it does I do not know how, I did a cut and paste and it just pasted it in regular font).

If an album has not been marketed for the English speaking language market, it is highly unlikely you will ever even know about its existence, hence the perception that the US and UK music dominates. There are shitloads of indie Russian bands playing punk, post-rock, prog, hip-hop or what have you ... but as long as you haven't learned cyrillic, you won't know about them.

The world is much more wide and diverse than our own perception of it allows us to fathom.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Patman360 — Fri, 3 May 2013 04:38:47 GMT

Author: Patman360

Posted: 05/03/2013 08:38

The Poe wrote:

Hmm, very good point, it's beginning to make more sense to me to now.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Thu, 2 May 2013 23:55:18 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 03:55

Trying to work on that a bit. Got my overall chart down to 68% from the US.

Of course, I've never had a high number of UK albums on my charts.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Thu, 2 May 2013 23:14:44 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 03:14

I like and generally agree with the point about imperialism by soundguardian ^

And the point of European harmony is interesting.

And yea, music of other languages are spreading. But music of a certain language tends to predominantly appeal to those that speak its language, except maybe english but I think that is for other reasons, like imperialism.

Patman360 wrote:

I would dispute this but I've decided that whether we call western music cultural is not really relevant to me anymore. One point people try to make is that western music is more popular because its more general and less specific. I disagree, I think many have only learned to associate it with being general music. It would not appeal as general to, say, a tribal indigenous Australian that's never heard it before. Western music would feel as different to them as their music feels to westerners.

And I think soundguardian's point about imperialism has more to do with its spread than some inherent appeal. Here's something non-music related that has also spread: the qwerty keyboard. It is factually the worst keyboard that is widely used. I use dvorak and I think if a young person who has never typed before was introduced to both keyboards, they would most likely prefer the more logically-based and better organized dvorak keyboard because it's more comfortable, you don't have to twist your fingers around to type words. However, most people grow up with qwerty keyboards and don't know any different, and consider them general or whatever. You grow up with pop music all around you, it's going to feel normal to you even if it's not the most rewarding style of music (assuming there could be better styles for arguments sake).

Edit: Also, when a person who is used to a qwerty keyboard tries dvorak, there's an adapting process, beginning with hunting for keys. It's similar to those used to pop music trying music of more obscure cultures, or simply trying more complex western styles like free jazz. There's an adaptive process, and you don't truly understand those styles until you have adapted to the point where they become normal. This is why most people aren't open to styles foreign to them, there is a process involved and most people don't recognize that and stick to what's comfortable and at home.

BTW, this post is general and not directed at Patman specifically at all.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

soundguardian — Thu, 2 May 2013 23:05:54 GMT

Author: soundguardian

Posted: 05/03/2013 03:05

Robert Anton Wilson wrote:

The fact the the site is a unilingual English site leads to most of its users being likely English speaking individuals which in return will likely be most exposed to English language music.

i have friends that would create charts of French language albums much more impressive than mine (though they did help me a lot) but they will not do it on a unilingual English website.

Create a similar site in Spanish and you will get quite different charts.

THIS. Of course this site is going to be biased. There's no way for a ranking site to NOT be biased. We aren't always purposefully biased, but we are subconsciously, and we ARE limited to what we have been exposed to. And exposure varies from nation-state to nation-state. So when it comes to this particular site, which is uni-lingual, language IS a factor. And maybe when it comes to Britain and The United States, where people are generally expected to speak English, the language in music probably matters as well (and is a reason why Americans mostly listen to English-sung music). But it doesn't explain why American and English music is so popular in parts of the world that aren't primarily English-speaking. See my argument above for details on those instances.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

soundguardian — Thu, 2 May 2013 22:52:17 GMT

Author: soundguardian

Posted: 05/03/2013 02:52

It's an excellent question, and something really worth thinking about, and something I've wondered before, too.

Someone mentioned that the roots of rock and roll are infused with the rhythm beats of traditional African music, which is a good point. So why is African music not a key player in the world-wide multimedia phenomenon alongside American music? Probably because Africa has been set back, unfortunately.

The reason that American and English rock & roll, American Hip-Hop and Rap, German electro music ["krautrock"], and various other New World American and Euro-centered music have been so influential and wide-spread throughout the world is probably the same reason that American and European trends in television, film, the sciences, technologies, architecture, literature, fashion, and the growing tolerance of demographic diversity have been so influential and wide-spread throughout the world.

Newly developed nations (think: Korea, e.g.) demonstrate a new generation almost analogous to that of The United States. The same technologies are used, the same clothing worn, hip-hop dancing is common, and an increased output of professionally-recorded music and elaborately-lighted and elaborately-set M/V's is apparent along with these trends.

I don't think language has so much to do with it. While some lyrical content of, say, K-Pop by Sistar or miss A incorporates English phrases to attract a larger audience abroad, most of the songs are in Korean, and they consistently get millions of views (and relatively high ratings) on Youtube. The opening and closing themes of the popular anime Death Note, by a visual kei Japanese band called Nightmare are in Japanese, as all of their music is, and the band's elaborate presentation in fashion is like that of American bands, just pushed one step farther. All of this media is spread via the internet, particularly anime-playing sites and youtube M/V's. What's more important than language is that the topics in 2000's and 2010's K-Pop and J-Rock are very similar to the love songs of American hip-hop and electronic dance music and the darker or brooding themes of American and English alternative rock / metal.

After all, in the 19th century the popular trends in Europe were German-language lieder, and before then Italian-language and German-language opera, and it's not like those languages predominated the world at large. That music, at the time, simply couldn't be spread to all corners of the planet due to restrictions in media diffusion (electronics technologies non-existent and whatnot). Also, the argument that language is an important factor could be invalidated by the fact that over 1.3 Billion people speak some dialect of Chinese, 300 million speak Hindi, and 400 million speak Spanish. And only 400 million speak English in a native sense. So why aren't those other native languages prone to popular and widely-acclaimed music as much as English-sung music? There is no linear trend. Popularity of Music vs. "Popularity" of Language can't be fit to a regression, as far as I know, and I'd need to see highly convincing data to change my mind.

It has a lot to do with the fact that America and Britain were leading members in imperialism, and what could be more "influential" than obtaining control over large amounts of territory and many peoples? One could argue that imperialism set back the "Third World" not only in living conditions, but also in multimedia, and the technology required to create said media. As noted above, many nations are beginning to flourish, taking in European and American influences and outputting their own adapted material (in native dialect) once the human, technological, and artistic resources are all aligned. For example, America's influence, including its music, other media, and its infrastructure, is so striking in Japan.

The last point I'd like to make is about European harmony. It's important in this discussion and can't be left out. Rock music's harmony is based on the harmonies of the baroque, classical, and romantic eras, all of which are centered in Europe, and as a result diffused to become the music standards of The United States as well. What's amazing is that the human ear is attuned to enjoy certain harmonies and dislike dissonances, and this understanding dates back to Pythagorean tuning developed in classic Greece. Since European music theory is often considered as a mastery of harmonic cohesiveness, it's no wonder that people of other nations also hear the beauty of European-based harmony and attempt to emulate it.

I'm not saying these are the only contributions, and it's more speculation than a backed argument. I also don't condone a purely Eurocentric theory or imperialistic ideals. I've only made notes that I think are important and relevant to the topic.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Patman360 — Thu, 2 May 2013 22:33:59 GMT

Author: Patman360

Posted: 05/03/2013 02:33

In regards to the topic of cultures, of course all music originated from some culture, but I can relate to Brandon's point about music becoming generalised beyond any specific culture or tradition, maybe in the past music helped spread culture, but I genuinely can't see that happening nowadays. I live in rural Ireland and would never imagine music affecting the culture around here, I'm not even sure how to define culture anymore.
I'm probably making no sense anymore and I'm beginning to confuse myself, I need sleep and hopefully I'll more sense tomorrow.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Thu, 2 May 2013 22:31:13 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 02:31

Defago wrote:

The language one, however, doesn't explain why instrumental music from the US and the UK is better regarded/known than instrumental music from the rest of the globe.

I think my point about music markets does, and RAW's point about language when it comes to sharing music on the internet - that french speakers are more likely to join french speaking sites to share music.

Re: Why is most music we listen to from just a few countries?

Anonymous — Thu, 2 May 2013 22:27:32 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/03/2013 02:27

Defago wrote:

Will this change as the internet/piracy becomes more of a common thing?

I think so, except those with stronger censorship like China.