Best Ever Albums

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

videoheadcleaner — Tue, 21 May 2013 03:13:53 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 05/21/2013 07:13

The rain falls softly on the defeated.

11-8

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

drakonium — Sat, 18 May 2013 07:54:56 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 05/18/2013 11:54

Norman Bates wrote:

I disagree (which is not important and totally pointless, I know). Bands like The Horrors or Interpol are not post-punk bands, as they don't derive their inspiration and/or ethics and/or sounds from punk, but from post-punk. They are inspired by post-punk, obviously, but have no link whatsoever with punk rock. Post-punk bands did. It's stupid arguing on my part I'm sure, but that's the way I feel about it - it doesn't matter much really, but somehow I feel strongly about this and think it changes a lot of things. But whatever. I'll probably just have to moan solitarily on this end of the Net when three 00's+ bands reach the semis with Joy Division... Nothing too important, guys, let's keep on keeping on.

OK, I just wanted to know what you thought about it. I still disagree with your point, but I had actually never seen things this way, and I'm glad you had that argument with Purple. Thanks 😄

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Sat, 18 May 2013 07:40:45 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/18/2013 11:40

drakonium wrote:

And if they DO share common points, then any band playing at any time WITH those elements could be called post-punk.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

drakonium — Sat, 18 May 2013 07:00:42 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 05/18/2013 11:00

I'm really confused by the discussion going on. I though post-punk was a genre defined by much more than just "the thing that hapened after punk". Bands classified as "post-punk" clearly share sonic elements, they have common aesthetics, they're not just "bands who played music after punk". Joy Division and Wire are not random bands which played random music after punk, they have many similarities, which bring them to be put inside this post-punk category. And if they DO share common points, then any band playing at any time WITH those elements could be called post-punk. Bands like The Horrors or Interpol clearly fall into this category, and artists like Madonna and Jay-Z clearly don't.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

19loveless91 — Sat, 18 May 2013 03:09:08 GMT

Author: 19loveless91

Posted: 05/18/2013 07:09

If post-punk meant only artists and records that were made in response to punk, without caring about how they sounded, then I would see the point. But the term post-punk isn't just that, it also encompasses certain stylistic and aesthetic characteristics. That's why, despite the term "post-punk" (as something that happened "after punk") I don't see why it should be limited to a certain era when you have all these bands that basically follow the same guidelines. Sure, they're revivalists, or "neo-", but same genre nonetheless. You might argue that it goes against the literal definition of the term, but you know how genres are. Post-rock, shoegaze, new wave (the sheer variety of the bands that fell under this umbrella term), etc. It's hard to give a satisfactory definition as to what they mean and be specific about what music they describe.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 19:47:49 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 23:47

Norman Bates wrote:

I'm an English teacher. I never claimed I was a good one. And honestly : I don't know the difference (that's sincere). No need to make fun of me over that though.

Sorry, I was getting a bit hostile there. Childish more or less means acting on the ego (negative), while childlike more references the joys of a child's mind, like finding love in the little things (positive); puerile more or less means childish.

Norman Bates wrote:

The definition I gave fits your examples perfectly. "The Wall" would have happened without punk: it's not post-punk. Back In Black could have happened without punk (it's basically boogie/hard rock) - it's not post-punk. 80s era U2 is definitely post-punk, as I believe U2 wouldn't have been born without punk. I set the limit at about '84-'85, just like Simon Reynolds does. I invented nothing.

Fair enough. I simply suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not a fan of artistic distinction on decadal (or really any temporal) timescales (you might be able to draw a definite distinction between Delacroix and Matisse/Picasso maybe, but once you add Cezanne it becomes blurry, at least without critics somewhat erroneous divisions upon which we base most all genres). And I believe nothing would happen without anything that came before it (whether as a construction or as a deconstruction). Ultimately, I'm simply yearning for a satisfactory definition of the subgenre post punk. As I've mentioned in my previous account, most philosophers of music draw the lines classical/jazz/rock and even those are blurry. Anyways, I believe if The Soft Moon has recorded in the late 70s/early 80s then you would be fine calling them post punk, which is strange to me.

All this being said, it's strange to me that you're attacking the legibility of a group that has already passed the tournament's legibility test, rather than promoting your own group (albeit they are winning and likely should).

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Fri, 17 May 2013 19:01:33 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/17/2013 23:01

ppnw wrote:

The country of origin actually had nothing to do with anything, except that I colloquially call him "Frenchman" when I chat to him.

Fair enough. Why you brought it up was probably pure chance then.

(1) so where's the cut off for post punk, and would you call other '79 and '80 albums like The Wall and Back in Black post punk? '80s era U2 also would not have happened without punk. Do you begin to see how futile this criterion is?

The definition I gave fits your examples perfectly. "The Wall" would have happened without punk: it's not post-punk. Back In Black could have happened without punk (it's basically boogie/hard rock) - it's not post-punk. 80s era U2 is definitely post-punk, as I believe U2 wouldn't have been born without punk. I set the limit at about '84-'85, just like Simon Reynolds does. I invented nothing.

(2) I wish I could bring him back to explain
There is no need really, as I think I understand the point all right. AND, as I said unironically, it is valid. for instance, I wouldn't argue with Madonna bing post-punk, in any case no less than any early 80s mutant disco act.

Finally, as an english teacher, you should recognize the difference between childish and childlike.
I'm an English teacher. I never claimed I was a good one. And honestly : I don't know the difference (that's sincere). No need to make fun of me over that though.

I really have no reason to argue with you, but if you keep on insisting, I'm here.

So am I, pal ; so am I. If you want to argue that the likes of The Rapture, Bloc Party, Franz Ferdinand, LCD Soundsystem or whateve, are postpunk bands, you know where to find me.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

meccalecca — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:49:36 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:49

Norman Bates wrote:

I fail to see how Cellar's virtual point would have to do with his being a fellow countryman. However accurately quoted the point may be, though, it may be right.

These are ridiculous semantics. There's no decisive evidence to prove whether or not Soft Moon is really "post-punk". Maybe the correct term is post-post-post-post-punk but that sounds stupid. You're both right.

That said, The Raincoats, definitely.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:43:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:43

The country of origin actually had nothing to do with anything, except that I colloquially call him "Frenchman" when I chat to him.

(1) so where's the cut off for post punk, and would you call other '79 and '80 albums like The Wall and Back in Black post punk? '80s era U2 also would not have happened without punk. Do you begin to see how futile this criterion is?

(2) I wish I could bring him back to explain

Finally, as an english teacher, you should recognize the difference between childish and childlike.

I really have no reason to argue with you, but if you keep on insisting, I'm here.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:34:24 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:34

ppnw wrote:

Your fellow Frenchman (Cellar) would argue that anything after punk is possibly post punk. I might also point out that this bickering seems a little puerile on your part. How would you define post punk?

I fail to see how Cellar's virtual point would have to do with his being a fellow countryman. However accurately quoted the point may be, though, it may be right.

IMO there are two ways of seeing this, and two ways only:

1) post-punk is the music that came just after punk and couldn't have been made if punk hadn't happened.
2) post-punk is everything that happened after punk.

EDIT: which means that post-punk IS NOT the music specifically influenced by post-punk. That makes no sense.

Now, according to 1), the band you're defending is not post-punk. It's post-modern literate pop music. That's my view of things. Anybody defending 2) has a good point as obviously and as objectively as historical POV might be, but that also means that such acts as Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z, Justin Bieber and OneDirection are post-punk. As I haven't voted yet, anyone who can argue for the consequences of 2) will make me vote for your band.

As for being puerile, honestly, at my age, it's an honor I am very happy to grant myself. Makes me feel young.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:25:17 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:25

Norman Bates wrote:

All highlights are mine.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:22:05 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:22

ppnw wrote:

post punk (...)post punk is a genre more clustered by a sound, rather than a time or a place.(...) post punk

All highlights are mine.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 18:02:46 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 22:02

Norman Bates wrote:

Explain modern post-punk.

I think you and I both know how difficult it is to actually define a subgenre, like post punk. However, I would say that I feel that post punk is a genre more clustered by a sound, rather than a time or a place. And The Soft Moon is more similar to what might be your perception of post punk than they are to most other modern genres.

Wikipedia wrote:

The Soft Moon is a ... neo-post-punk band

rateyourmusic wrote:

Genres: Post-Punk

discogs wrote:

San Francisco based neo-post-punk band

Piero Scaruffi wrote:

San Francisco's one-man band Soft Moon debuted with The Soft Moon in a vein reminiscent of the gothic new wave

EDIT: I should mention that I am even torn by this match. The Raincoats debut simply is better than any album The Soft Moon has put out thus far, but I believe I enjoy the entire catalogue of The Soft Moon a bit more than the entire catalogue of The Raincoats. I should also mention that when I entered The Soft Moon (and Women) I didn't expect them to get farther than a round or two. My sole purpose of nominating them is to encourage members (especially the younger ones) to give at least one album from The Soft Moon (and Women) a listen, because I know many haven't. To end with an anecdote: I've been preaching about The Soft Moon since I found them, and only about a week ago did Magenta give them a listen; within the next two days after her first listen she bought their debut on vinyl.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Fri, 17 May 2013 14:55:07 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/17/2013 18:55

ppnw wrote:

The Soft Moon is a modern post-punk

Explain modern post-punk.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Norman Bates — Fri, 17 May 2013 14:54:22 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 05/17/2013 18:54

Here's a few reasons why you should vote for The Raincoats.

1) they were awesome
2) they're the only "post-punk" band of the two.

Even if you like the Soft Moon better, seeing as this is the "Post Punk Tournament", you should vote for the incredible Raincoats. One sublime number to swipe you away:

Link

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 13:58:38 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 17:58

The Soft Moon are pretty good, but I had to go with The Raincoats.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

ptaylor1989 — Fri, 17 May 2013 09:29:30 GMT

Author: ptaylor1989

Posted: 05/17/2013 13:29

ppnw wrote:

If someone could post "Circles," I would be thankful.

Link

EDIT: Please no duplicate account shenanigans in this match.

Re: CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

Anonymous — Fri, 17 May 2013 09:26:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 05/17/2013 13:26

The Soft Moon is a modern post-punk/psych group and visual project based in San Francisco, US that has produced two studio albums, The Soft Moon (2010) and Zeros (2012), and an EP, Total Decay (2011). Their sound includes influences from Suicide, Killing Joke, and Danse Society (among others), and their sound is a transcendentally-dark-yet-danceable, black-and-white, spider-crawling-across-your-toes, rhythm-based sound. The lyrics are sparse, and only screams or grunts occupy several songs. I discovered them via scarufficom while browsing for 2010 albums to include in the year tournament. The post-punk aficionados of the site (CellarDoor, harkan, Magenta) have all proclaimed their love for The Soft Moon. If you’re pressed for listening time in this match, listen to and compare the debuts from both The Soft Moon and The Raincoats.

If someone could post "Circles," I would be thankful.

EDIT: Please no duplicate account shenanigans in this match.

CLOSED: PPNW - R1: The Raincoats def. The Soft Moon

videoheadcleaner — Fri, 17 May 2013 05:51:55 GMT

Author: videoheadcleaner

Posted: 05/17/2013 09:51

THE RAINCOATS (Coach: Norman Bates)

BEA Rank: 1537

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Vs.

THE SOFT MOON (Coach: purple)

BEA Rank: 3411