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Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

CellarDoor — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 18:58:01 GMT

Author: CellarDoor

Posted: 06/19/2013 22:58

tekin wrote:

50 dollars? I can make it to sixty, I'm in. Aaaaaaa I'm coming Kathmandu!!!

You could find some cheap lodging for 60 bucks, and if you leave on foot now, you'll probably make it there by October.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:19:15 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/19/2013 17:19

Saoirse wrote:

How much would it cost? more than 50 dollars american?

50 dollars? I can make it to sixty, I'm in. Aaaaaaa I'm coming Kathmandu!!!

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:08:21 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/19/2013 17:08

CellarDoor wrote:

My mom's an english teacher in a french professional apprentice school (LEP) and would agree with Norm's post. Hard going.

On another note I'll be staying in Kathmandu in October if anyone wants to join the fun 😄

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

How much would it cost? more than 50 dollars american?

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:07:39 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/18/2013 23:07

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! This thread is supposed to be about Summer vacation! Now we're talking about teaching in school, which doesn't take place in the summer.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

HigherThanTheSun — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:38:32 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 06/18/2013 22:38

I was pretty surprised at your salary Norman, it's about the same as the starting salary for secondary teachers in the UK and quite a bit less than if you're a secondary teacher in London. I guess I had the idea that public sector teachers would be paid better in France than the UK 😕

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Norman Bates — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:29:13 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 06/18/2013 21:29

revolver94 wrote:

She makes like 48k a year right now, and in ten years it will only rise to 55k. Pretty frustrating.

😲 that's like 1.5 times what I make after 15 years. I want that green card!

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

revolver94 — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:25:18 GMT

Author: revolver94

Posted: 06/18/2013 21:25

My mom just got her Master's degree in education a few years back and has now been teaching 5th grade for two years. Definitely agree that teacher's are extremely under-appreciated. She makes like 48k a year right now, and in ten years it will only rise to 55k. Pretty frustrating.

She does find it very rewarding, though, and she is able to teach at the school that is a block from our house (in a really nice neighborhood), so that works out well.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

CellarDoor — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:15:13 GMT

Author: CellarDoor

Posted: 06/18/2013 20:15

My mom's an english teacher in a french professional apprentice school (LEP) and would agree with Norm's post. Hard going.

On another note I'll be staying in Kathmandu in October if anyone wants to join the fun 😄

Thumbnail. Click to enlarge.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

drakonium — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 14:04:06 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/18/2013 18:04

junodog4 wrote:

I don't know what the rules are in France, but in Canada, tutoring your own students for money is a massive conflict of interest and would get you fired.

Here it's not a problem at all. A teacher I had a few years ago even used a room in the school to give personal classes to his own students. Also, you don't have to tutor students from your class, you can find people who need classes almost everywhere.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

junodog4 — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:55:15 GMT

Author: junodog4

Posted: 06/18/2013 16:55

drakonium wrote:

particular classes make you get lots of money..

drakonium wrote:

Also, I think a maths teacher can always find a way to give personal classes, as there are a lot of students who have difficulties with this subject. There must be something wrong or cliché in my reasoning, though, and I'd like to know what.

I don't know what the rules are in France, but in Canada, tutoring your own students for money is a massive conflict of interest and would get you fired.

I was going to post some more opinions on teaching, but Norman did a great job. His career mirrors mine - I started out in some pretty rough conditions, but have moved up and gained experience to the point where I actually feel on top of things and have life/work balance.

That said - I've just completed a move into adolescent therapy. Teaching was fantastic, but I found myself working with students' personal problems and concerns more than their questions about the curriculum. So I got my Masters and switched.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:32:29 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/18/2013 16:32

Reading that post kind of makes me wish you were one of my teachers. I've never had a teacher I didn't get along with, and you'd fit perfectly with my teachers.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

meccalecca — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:19:01 GMT

Author: meccalecca

Posted: 06/18/2013 16:19

Norman Bates wrote:

It is an interesting and sometimes gratifying job. Correcting tests is horrendous, but it's part of the job, and can (sometimes) be gratifying too. Now, all this 'gratifying' bit can easily become totally depressing, depending on the results you get... and how much you're willing to commit yourself to the job.

The teaching part itself is by far the most interesting. My view on this is that the job's mostly in class, sharing stuff with the kids and seeing how they do and trying to make them sort out some sort of meaning out of what you give them. Always interesting, and sometimes surprisingly so. Kids are much smarter than they used to be - at least, they're much smarter than I was when I was their age.

I teach 11 to 18 years-old. That's 6ème through Bac. I work in a 'cité scolaire' in Paris, which means there's both a 'collège' and a 'lycée'. Depending on the year, I can teach any of the levels, with all sorts of different specialties in lycée. This year, I had 3ème, 2nde (with class coordinating, 'professeur principal' and stuff) and '1ère L spécialité', meaning teaching the kids going for the literary/language studies in their 'English language' specialty.

Now, to why I sounded grumpy.

First off, the first years of teaching are the most difficult, sometimes so hard it takes all the romanticism out of it. Most likely you'll be appointed in a godforsaken school built in one of the wildest 'cités'. Now, believe me, that's a tough break. I did teach for 5 years in a godawful school in the French suburbs (Goussainville, Val d'Oise): two arsons, one lynching, I got into one or two fights as well, drugs everywhere, kids making more money than me just peddling shit and not being able to apprehend for one second the advantage of school education. Can't blame them, who would? Roissy's just 5 minutes away, everything's there for the taking, down the plane and out of the airport. The kids used to try and sell me all sorts of stuff... Depressing. At night I'd just go home, lie down in a 'let's rest for a while' fashion, and not wake up until it was time to go back again. Of course, since they were my first years, most of my free time was used creating lessons. However, teaching there is where you make the most money, all sorts of 'priority education bonuses' and stuff. And the kids that are good at school there are absolutely fascinating. I've never seen kids as bright and more wanting to get out of the dump, not anywhere. Plus, if you 'have the guts' (that's how the kids see it) to remain for more than one year in the wretched building, you get some sort of cult hero status, and some form of 'respect' or something. Totally weird. I moved as soon as I could, which was 5 years later.

I'm much more comfortable now. I'm 15 years into a career, I'm considered as an 'experienced' teacher (which was how I was characterized in this year's report, and seems totally strange, as I can't help but still see myself as a beginner), the school is relatively quiet, I can focus on the essentials of the job - transmission and getting the kids to intellectually fend for themselves. The kids are nice where I am. I can prepare lessons much more quickly than I used to, re-use some of the old ones (not too much seeing that curriculus change ever so often, which is fine by me and forces me to constantly reconsider what I was doing), I'm a pro at correcting the effing papers for nights on end, teaching 'specialité' insures I can have interesting subjects to work on regardles sof the curriculum - the curriculum just doesn't exit for this class, you have to do it all yourself, which is perfect for me, as I really don't like following the blasted class book forever. I'm not paid enough for a 15-year experienced teacher (€2,300 per month, which in itself is OK to get by, only just because Paris is so expensive, the rent is €1,400 for instance, now of course the missuz works too), but the family eats properly, and although we can't afford much extra, we're not in danger. Yes we do get the holidays. That's good. Mind you, our getting the holidays means we're paid less, but oh well, that's a technicality I'm not willing to delve into right now.

All in all, I don't want to sound too grouchy about the job. I really like it. It's got its advantages. What's depressing is how it's changing and what 'education' seems to mean to the übercapitalist system I'm silently condoning just by being a teacher for it. The way to fight it though, is in the class, with the kids, and that's something they can't take away from me.

I have nothing but respect for good teachers. They're the greatest hope for our society, especially as parents are working longer and longer hours. I've definitely considered working towards becoming a high school art teacher. i can technically teach on the college level in the US, but have no desire to do so. My interest doesn't even come so much from the teaching, but from playing the role of a positive figure in kids lives.

Not sure how it is in France or the rest of Europe, but in the US, the education system is ridiculously based around teaching for the test. It's no way to learn. I recently watched a fantastic documentary about the condition of public schools called The War on Kids. I definitely recommend it. Would love to hear how the US education system compares to France.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:44:35 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/18/2013 15:44

Fantastic post Norman.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Anonymous — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:21:59 GMT

Author: Anonymous

Posted: 06/18/2013 14:21

Thank you for sharing Norman. I have always felt that teaching is a thankless job that not enough people appreciate. They are criminally undervalued in our society.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

drakonium — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:25:23 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/18/2013 12:25

Norman Bates wrote:

Wow, this is one of the best posts about teaching I've ever seen, thanks a lot. There are many things I didn't know here.

I definitely have to reconsider my point about teaching. That said, the way you talked about the job made me much more interested in it. Again, thanks.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

Norman Bates — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 03:15:08 GMT

Author: Norman Bates

Posted: 06/18/2013 07:15

drakonium wrote:

:(

I don't know, it seemed pretty cool. Correcting maths tests must be super easy, and you keep the same lessons over the years (if you don't change your teaching level obviously) so it doesn't seems like a lot of work after the first year. Also, I think a maths teacher can always find a way to give personal classes, as there are a lot of students who have difficulties with this subject. There must be something wrong or cliché in my reasoning, though, and I'd like to know what.

That said, the teaching part itself must not be easy at all. Dealing with students is always difficult, though it may be easier when you're a maths teacher than when you're an English one.

What levels do you teach, Norman? (with the French translation, please, I don't really know anything about English / American ones 😠 )

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

drakonium — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 20:01:50 GMT

Author: drakonium

Posted: 06/18/2013 00:01

EyeKanFly wrote:

By "writing a paper" I mean writing an essay (anywhere from 1-20 pages typed), which in middle/high school I did mostly for history classes, but also for English (literature/grammar), biology, and some other subjects too, but math was always "tests" in the way that you described, with questions you have to solve on the sheet. At my school tests where you have to tick off the answers were NEVER given in math (except for state exams, which were always very easy), but were more common in sciences or history (usually combined with essay or demonstration type questions).

And yes, I understand scoring an exam with in-depth questions is much more difficult than scoring a true/false or multiple choice exam, but I still think it would take less time to score a 10 page calculus exam than a 10 page American history essay (for example). That's just me though, because I'm much better at math than I am at reading/writing/editing. Who knows though, I've never done either (professionally).

OK, same here, I just wasn't sure. And I definitely agree with your second paragraph.

About the teacher work topic, I'm sorry if I came as prententious or offensive, it wasn't at all what I wanted to express. I'm genuinely ignorant of a high school teacher's quantity of work, it's just a vibe I get from the maths teaching I had a few years ago. Also, I was talking about maths in particular, as it seems to be the easiest subject to teach (when you're good in maths, I mean). Again, I know nothing about it, it's just that I can imagine myself as a maths teacher, but not as a history or language one. I guess it's subjective.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

HigherThanTheSun — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:33:37 GMT

Author: HigherThanTheSun

Posted: 06/17/2013 23:33

Yeah, to clarify, when I said I wanted to do teaching just for the long holidays, I definitely wasn't being serious. I'd like to be a teacher because it is the only job I can see myself genuinely enjoying, in spite of how challenging and how much hard work it might be. Some of my teachers at school had a pretty big impact on my life and my outlook on the world and I really do appreciate that. I would like to have that same impact on the kid's lives that I teach and I think it's a pretty cool to have that responsibility as a teacher.

How come you're stopping teaching Juno, and to do what instead?

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

EyeKanFly — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:29:55 GMT

Author: EyeKanFly

Posted: 06/17/2013 23:29

drakonium wrote:

Maybe I don't get what you exactly mean by "writing a paper", but in France, there are almost never tests where you have to tick answers (at least in maths). It's always questions or demonstrations you have to do on you sheet, and you give it back to the teacher. They're much more interested in the reasoning than in the result, and I agree with that.

junodog4 wrote:

Anyone who things they should get into teaching for the easy hours or big money is foolish.

Speaking as a high school teacher in Canada - we get paid decently, but nothing like professionals in the private sector with comparable education and responsibilities (engineers, accoutants, etc...). American teachers are often paid an insulting wage. Teaching is long hours marking, planning and prepping, and is often thankless (parents are often frustrating, and as evidenced by this thread, society is often ignorant or unappreciative of teaching). That said, the kids are usually fun, you can feel good about what you do, and you're never bored. Despite this, I've just completed a career change. 😨

If you're thinking about teaching, do it because you're passionate. If you're interested because it's easy, be prepared for burnout.

I completely agree with all of this. Especially the parts in bold.

Re: Happy Summer Vacation!

junodog4 — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 18:32:03 GMT

Author: junodog4

Posted: 06/17/2013 22:32

Anyone who things they should get into teaching for the easy hours or big money is foolish.

Speaking as a high school teacher in Canada - we get paid decently, but nothing like professionals in the private sector with comparable education and responsibilities (engineers, accoutants, etc...). American teachers are often paid an insulting wage. Teaching is long hours marking, planning and prepping, and is often thankless (parents are often frustrating, and as evidenced by this thread, society is often ignorant or unappreciative of teaching). That said, the kids are usually fun, you can feel good about what you do, and you're never bored. Despite this, I've just completed a career change. 😨

If you're thinking about teaching, do it because you're passionate. If you're interested because it's easy, be prepared for burnout.